naza
Alan Cameron (40)
But he makes up for it by being abysmal in set pieces !
Waratahs v Reds Match Thread
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But he makes up for it by being abysmal in set pieces !
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BRIX
Guest
It's crazy. I watched Saia play for Australia in the U/19's world cup in 2006. He was monstering everyone - more so, you couldn't fault the set piece. It's weird because watching him it doesn't seem like his not trying and the bloke gives it his all. Then you see him get thrown out of the way at ruck time and belted in the tackle. I think he certainly has the physicality. But I think the problem lies in the fact that he's too instinctive and not calculated enough.
He has to start playing with his brains a little more, I look forward to seeing him achieve his goals. He's a great kid
except for his strong run in the lead up to the Will Chambers non-try.
At about 1.18 here:
[video=youtube;d0OxFQBL4QY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0OxFQBL4QY[/video]
I'm not sure it was just Reds fans suggested the Tahs were boring last year? I seem to recall a large number of Tahs fans suggesting the same. Regardless, it all changed soon enough as soon as KB (Kurtley Beale) was moved to fullback, the Tahs played differently.
Besides, the Reds tried to play attacking football, failed so tightened their game plan. Kicked a little more, relied on the forward play more. And came away with the win.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
When he can do that with some consistancy, not just between games but within the same game the criticism can be dismissed as invalid.
Ruggo
Mark Ella (57)
I seem to remember the Tahs home crowd booing them off the park.
T
TOCC
Guest
RugbyReg was purely replying to the comment that Saia gets belted backwards every time he touches the ball.... which he has displayed through the video is obviously incorrect..
No one is trying to convince you he is a world beater, just merely presenting all the facts on the table rather then misguided opinions.
spectator
Bob Davidson (42)
I often think that Saia's fitness isn't up to S 15 level, which is surprising given how fit the Reds are as a unit, and that maybe the reason that he is sometimes ineffective in contact and a bit second hand after it. However, there is no doubting his committment when he does get stuck into it and he has been more plus than minus for the Reds.
James Hanson is coming along nicely, and his injection off the bench is a perfect foil for S Finger doing the grunt stuff for the first 50 mins or so. Someone in another post mentioned his rugby bloodlines...his mum's brother is Tony Parker, the former Wallaby halfback.
James Hanson is coming along nicely, and his injection off the bench is a perfect foil for S Finger doing the grunt stuff for the first 50 mins or so. Someone in another post mentioned his rugby bloodlines...his mum's brother is Tony Parker, the former Wallaby halfback.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Indeed. I along with quite a few other Tah fans called for Hickey to be sacked prior to last year's S14 and then again after the first few games. The issue is that they played a very narrow limited game plan. It wasn't even an efficient balanced forward type game plan. It consisted almost entirely of one out runners bashing the ball up in the 1st or 2nd channel League style. That was boring and rightly got them booed.
What changed? Well we saw some real RUGBY forward play, less individualism and with better selections and balance to the team we saw the ball go wide and some exciting play. The key was however not the throwing the ball around, but the loss of the League style one up hits without support that had charectised the the Tahs for two or three years.
What changed? Well we saw some real RUGBY forward play, less individualism and with better selections and balance to the team we saw the ball go wide and some exciting play. The key was however not the throwing the ball around, but the loss of the League style one up hits without support that had charectised the the Tahs for two or three years.
Reddy!
Bob Davidson (42)
Because they are the Waratahs, people love to knock them. They have played in some dire games to be honest over the last 5 years, but so has everyone else.
I think everyone is impressed by the Reds ability to finally play some "winning" rugby when it is needed. Whereas at the Waratahs, everyone knows they can win, how about doing it with a bit more flair (which they seem to do these days anyway).
Brumbies Guy
John Solomon (38)
He is 23 (still young for the front row) with 50+ Super caps and 10+ Test caps, there must be a little bit of consistancy there. TPN suffered similar criticism only a few years (for consistency not physicality), and look how well he has matured.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Finger strikes me as being a victim of the obsession with mobility and speed. It appears that he lacks the outright strength and mass that is a common feature of the top Hookers. He is if you will the Hooker equivalent of Richard Brown, huge work rate with low effectiveness, high tackle completion rate without domination. The focus on work rate etc has led to light weight forwards unable to compete at set piece and break down one on one. It will be interesting to see how they match up with the heavier Tahs who have been doing focussed strength and weight training since last year. This is obviously a concern of Link's, as why else would he be trying to get the heaviest pack he can on the park even though it sacrifices specialist skills and overall balance of the pack?
T
TOCC
Guest
Id say the obsession with the mentality that 'bigger is naturally better' is the issue at hand here... Just have a look at the best scrum in the world ATM, the French hookers are all in the 100-105kg category..
T
TOCC
Guest
It isnt a myth that the general public found the Tahs boring in 2010, not sure why this is still being debated, its reflected in the statistics as well..
NSW only drew on average 1'000 more people per game then the Reds in tv ratings throughout 2010.. I also remember reading that almost 50% of the Reds views were actually from NSW
NSW only drew on average 1'000 more people per game then the Reds in tv ratings throughout 2010.. I also remember reading that almost 50% of the Reds views were actually from NSW
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Try to read the intent of what I have posted. It is not weight perse but the strength training and focus of the player. I always look back on the great Scottish prop Tom Smith as an example of what a "small" player can accomplish. Smith was regarded as a very good prop but was probably the smallest prop in international rugby at the time. Weight isn't the issue "strength" is and that goes to not just muscle mass, but to what training is done to produce strength or speed and mobility. Your example of the French team supports what I am saying, they are smaller units but look at their one on one strengths and mobility and speed are not the foremost qualities.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
The Tahs were certainly boring last year in many games and not least in the Reds game. In R1 at Suncorp they were not only boring but also were being out-enthused up front. It changed in the last quarter and it didn't matter that they were playing with 14 men at some stage.
Boring or not, they had the ability to grind wins out and make the other team realise they could as they did it. The Brumbies and Force were ground down too.
Scoring a few nice tries hasn't been the problem for the Reds in the past, even before 2010; grinding out games that were winnable has been. This win against the Force was scarcely more important than the manner in which they won it. The Reds need to become known as a team that can overcome adversity during a game as well as one that can blitz opponents with brilliancies. It will be a fearsome combo.
I was impressed with how the Tahs defence handled the Rebels attacks in the first half last week. Our forwards did not allow theirs to get go forward ball. They kept knocking them back and therefore their backs withered on the vine.
The Force backrow was impressive against the Reds in denying go forward, and thereby affecting the Reds backs, but I reckon that the Tahs pack of 8 will do better as a whole than the Force pack in that area.
Therefore the Reds will have to be more robust up front this week than they were last. For a lot of the game at Suncorp I thought the Reds forwards were playing as they did at the end of the Tahs match last year.
Boring or not, they had the ability to grind wins out and make the other team realise they could as they did it. The Brumbies and Force were ground down too.
Scoring a few nice tries hasn't been the problem for the Reds in the past, even before 2010; grinding out games that were winnable has been. This win against the Force was scarcely more important than the manner in which they won it. The Reds need to become known as a team that can overcome adversity during a game as well as one that can blitz opponents with brilliancies. It will be a fearsome combo.
I was impressed with how the Tahs defence handled the Rebels attacks in the first half last week. Our forwards did not allow theirs to get go forward ball. They kept knocking them back and therefore their backs withered on the vine.
The Force backrow was impressive against the Reds in denying go forward, and thereby affecting the Reds backs, but I reckon that the Tahs pack of 8 will do better as a whole than the Force pack in that area.
Therefore the Reds will have to be more robust up front this week than they were last. For a lot of the game at Suncorp I thought the Reds forwards were playing as they did at the end of the Tahs match last year.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Lee, what I posted in reply to you on another thread regarding the new/old prototype of seven/backrow play will be on show here. Last week you had the force playing 3 7's in the backrow with a true 8 playing in the second row. It isn't any wonder that the Reds struggled at the breakdown given the laziness of Houston and the ponderous nature of the backrow with both him and Horwill there. What made the Reds issues worse was their inability to pressure the Force at either scrum or lineout given the total inbalance in their (Force) pack. Sharpe showed again what a great lineout forward he is IMO.
Against the Tahs the Reds will face a much different threat. The pack is balanced. In fact IMO it is the best pack the Tahs have put out on the park in years, in terms of depth, conditioning and now mode of play. We have seen a return of some traditional Rugby forward play in counter rucking and mauling. Have the Reds developed that game at all? The Reds will not be targeted by turning the ball over at the Ruck with the hand of a 7 but by counter rucking of the forwards acting in concert. I also expect to see the Reds targeted close to the line with mauls from lineouts.
Some may decry this as boring, I do not. Traditional Rugby forward play is not, if it is executed in a dynamic manner with precision. What was boring about the Tahs as I said earlier was the one out hit ups ala League with no rapid support or offloads.
Against the Tahs the Reds will face a much different threat. The pack is balanced. In fact IMO it is the best pack the Tahs have put out on the park in years, in terms of depth, conditioning and now mode of play. We have seen a return of some traditional Rugby forward play in counter rucking and mauling. Have the Reds developed that game at all? The Reds will not be targeted by turning the ball over at the Ruck with the hand of a 7 but by counter rucking of the forwards acting in concert. I also expect to see the Reds targeted close to the line with mauls from lineouts.
Some may decry this as boring, I do not. Traditional Rugby forward play is not, if it is executed in a dynamic manner with precision. What was boring about the Tahs as I said earlier was the one out hit ups ala League with no rapid support or offloads.
T
TOCC
Guest
I did read what you posted, and i apologist but i am naturally dismissive of anyone who talks about the front row and limits the conversation to purely size and strength....
Id say the biggest factor at play would be the technical ability of a player, which in terms of hookers is quite difficult to assess when it comes to scrums.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Some good points up there Gnostic.
The Force pack has always been imbalanced because the three backrowers are some of their best players and they have to be on the park. Now they are adding on McCalman to the mix and are becoming like Sydney Uni who play, virtually, with 5 backrowers in the pack and their front row is not without agility either. It works at the club level but the Force will be found out by some Super teams, though, truth be told, the Tahs had the same problem with them last year as the Reds did last week.
I thought the Tahs pack would be out of balance last week with Cliffy not there but Mowen did a fine job at 8 and Dennis played a hard yet agile game at 6 and as good if not better than Mowen would have.
Last year, after Palu was out for the year, Dennis played 6 but lost his place to McCutcheon. But it was probably horses for courses against the more expansive Chiefs and Hurricanes - more in balance for those opponents. Right now I am not anxious to get the estimable McCutcheon back in the team. (He had a comeback game, or rather half a one, for the Juniors yesterday.)
You make a good point about the counter-rucking. As I said on a rant in another thread: the crackdown on observing the laws has marginalised fetchers and other defenders who stop at the ball and try to fish it out. Now there is more value for defenders in getting past the ball with what is now called counter-rucking.
Bigger, stronger guys are better at that but technique is important too: they still have to have the right timing and apply force to the right parts of opponents otherwise size and strength don't matter. They also have to have the rugby nous of when not to bother doing it.
I think that Waugh will come into his own in this environment. He faded in the period when fetchers could do the highway robbery that is now outlawed. He was always a tight no.7 yet still has a knack of being in the right place at the right time.
I also liked your point about the difference in work rate and effectiveness. It is all very well to flit around tagging folks with tackles but it is the dominant tackle that can slow opponents down legally for an extra second or two, as you indicate. Some may say it's the same as league; so we don't want that in our game. I say it's good rugby union practice too and always has been.
As for the Tahs forwards bulking up being effective - or not: my jury is still out until I see them in action against a top pack.
The Force pack has always been imbalanced because the three backrowers are some of their best players and they have to be on the park. Now they are adding on McCalman to the mix and are becoming like Sydney Uni who play, virtually, with 5 backrowers in the pack and their front row is not without agility either. It works at the club level but the Force will be found out by some Super teams, though, truth be told, the Tahs had the same problem with them last year as the Reds did last week.
I thought the Tahs pack would be out of balance last week with Cliffy not there but Mowen did a fine job at 8 and Dennis played a hard yet agile game at 6 and as good if not better than Mowen would have.
Last year, after Palu was out for the year, Dennis played 6 but lost his place to McCutcheon. But it was probably horses for courses against the more expansive Chiefs and Hurricanes - more in balance for those opponents. Right now I am not anxious to get the estimable McCutcheon back in the team. (He had a comeback game, or rather half a one, for the Juniors yesterday.)
You make a good point about the counter-rucking. As I said on a rant in another thread: the crackdown on observing the laws has marginalised fetchers and other defenders who stop at the ball and try to fish it out. Now there is more value for defenders in getting past the ball with what is now called counter-rucking.
Bigger, stronger guys are better at that but technique is important too: they still have to have the right timing and apply force to the right parts of opponents otherwise size and strength don't matter. They also have to have the rugby nous of when not to bother doing it.
I think that Waugh will come into his own in this environment. He faded in the period when fetchers could do the highway robbery that is now outlawed. He was always a tight no.7 yet still has a knack of being in the right place at the right time.
I also liked your point about the difference in work rate and effectiveness. It is all very well to flit around tagging folks with tackles but it is the dominant tackle that can slow opponents down legally for an extra second or two, as you indicate. Some may say it's the same as league; so we don't want that in our game. I say it's good rugby union practice too and always has been.
As for the Tahs forwards bulking up being effective - or not: my jury is still out until I see them in action against a top pack.
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