Waratahs v Crusaders, round 15, Saturday 23 May @ Homebush

[Pfitzy]

Didn't really want to come into this thread for parochial Aussie tub thumping and read pfitz first up. At least I was prepared for it

You're welcome!

 

[Braveheart81]

It's the closest act to umaga/Saint Kevin on bod I have seen which people still scream blue murder about today and the game is far stricter on this today. Not should have gone.

This is so far off the mark. Yes it was a dangerous tackle and Latu deserved a yellow card. He lifted Whitelock and that put him in a dangerous position.

It was so far short of the tackle on BOD though. Whitelock didn't land on his shoulders or neck so there was never that level of danger and also the reason there wasn't a red card handed out.

Now I do think that Latu particularly could get suspended for a couple of weeks, particularly if he does contest the charge. It was certainly at the lower end as far as lifting tackles go though.

This tackle does highlight where the greater danger in lifting tackles lies which is having two players involved in the tackle. The lift alone wasn't overly dangerous but when you have another tackle trying to get the ball carrier to ground, the level of danger rises immensely. If Latu had inverted Whitelock more, you could have easily seen Skelton driving Whitelock's shoulders/head towards the ground in a very dangerous manner.

 

[Sully]

I have got to say that the moment I saw the tackle I thought red card Skelton. Even on the replay I thought the same and was surprised Latu got pinged.
Then when I saw the McCaw hit I thought fuck he's lucky he didn't get that yellow before because he's definitely getting one for that.
If the shoulder charge is the tackle where he drove his shoulder into the guy on the ground that was reviewed then I think there wasn't anything in that.

 

[Braveheart81]

Is Ian Prior the only red card for a lifting tackle this season? He absolutely did dump the opposition player on their head.

I don't think Latu or Skelton were that lucky not to be red carded because Whitelock didn't land on his shoulders or neck. Likewise, I don't think they could have counted themselves too unlucky if one of them had received a red card.

The judiciary definitely have a challenge determining exactly who is culpable for the tackle and to what degree.

I definitely think Latu is to blame for doing the lifting. Skelton was just tackling the upper half of Whitelock's body and there wouldn't have been any danger if Whitelock hadn't been lifted.

 

[barbarian]

Steyn got one for a lifting tackle against the Chiefs. Think there might be a few more too.

 

[Braveheart81]

Steyn got one for a lifting tackle against the Chiefs. Think there might be a few more too.

That's right. The one where he was red carded then the judiciary originally found him not guilty, SANZAR appealed and he got 5 weeks.

I can't get a video of it to load but from memory the player landed far more on his shoulders and head than Whitelock did.

It will be interesting to see what happens this afternoon. I definitely think that there will be at least one of the two suspended but it should be a short suspension.

The issue might be if they both plead not guilty they could change something that might have been one week to four weeks.

 

[barbarian]

I think the fact that saved them from a red, and will save them from a long suspension is Whitelock's landing point. He landed more or less horizontally, rather than being dropped on his head or upper body.

Steyn dropped the Chiefs player directly on his head, which is generally the threshold for RC and long suspensions.
.

 

[Braveheart81]

There has been comments made that because the whistle had blown, the incident is worse.

I don't agree with that. We actually see a lot of lifting tackles happening after the whistle has gone which in my view is primarily due to the ball carrier stopping. Whereas they'd ordinarily be fighting against being tackled, they go limp which results in them being far more likely to be picked up and flipped.

Clearly the tacklers are still entirely at fault but I think the whistle having being blown makes it more likely that a lifting tackle might occur rather than making the lifting tackle a more heinous incident.

 

[Gagger]

BH you're on my counsel of ever I get cited

 

[Tahspark]

No, two people doing a bad job doesn't balance anything, if anything it multiplies the aggravation. Besides, Kafer is allegedly the clever one, there to provide insightful analysis.
And why do people quote "Kearns" back at me as if I've said he was good?? It's just a strawman.

"Counter-balanced" was deliberately in inverted commas; I could have used italics too I wouldn't affront you to even suggest that you said Kearns was a good commentator. I've been here long enough & share your misgivings.

 

[todd4]

Kafe's commentary is "counter-balanced" by Kearns who is a fan with a mike & who fails to impart any expert analysis or even attempt non-biased observations.

I actually don't really have a problem with Kearns because what you see is what you get. We all know that he is an unabashed Tahs fan and he doesn't pretend to be anything else.
What annoys me is commentators (including NZ commentators) who are biased in their calling of a game but seriously want people to believe they are impartial.

 

[todd4]

To FPs point - anyone else notice how McCaw and Whitelock stayed down as if they'd taken a bullet to the cerebral cortex, and then were fine?

Whitelock lay there like he was unconscious which had the effect of making the whole thing look even worse. I certainly don't condone lifting tackles but I hope our game doesn't go the way of soccer where grown men act like girls and are lauded for it.

 

[robboandrews7]

I hope he gets more. Makes others like Hoffmann and Berry look even worse!

Hoff isn't usually that bad, he one shocker and his whole reputation goes to shit. The same couldn't be said for Berry though...

 

[Gnostic]

Whitelock lay there like he was unconscious which had the effect of making the whole thing look even worse. I certainly don't condone lifting tackles but I hope our game doesn't go the way of soccer where grown men act like girls and are lauded for it.

Agree fully, but unfortunately more than one back chasing through a kick has been known to throw themselves onto the ground at the slightest brush.

That said we can't condemn their "gamesmanship" which I personally call unsportsmanlike behaviour, without also condemning the player who commit intentional acts of foul play and those who professionally act against the laws "cheating" (aka pushing the laws) to win games.

There is little doubt that Whitelock exaggerated the extent of the injury done to him. That doesn't excuse Latu for lifting (and Skelton if he realised that Latu was lifting from easing him to the ground). However (and I'm saying this to you Rod Kafer) Whitelock should be criticsed for intentionally entering the maul from the side and killing the ball intentionally to prevent a try. Kafer believes it was good play because he got away with it. I don't, I see him as a cheat. If he does it habitually he is no better than a drug cheat. McCaw could have been a great of the game and most will argue that he is, I argue the opposite because he didn't "push the laws" he intentionally sought ways to circumvent them, such as his try in the Beldisloe Cup a few years ago detaching and running from the scrum before the ball was out. Again many would say fair play because he got away with it.

I say try to play within the rules or don't play.

 

[FrankLind]

Agree fully, but McCaw could have been a great of the game and most will argue that he is, I argue the opposite because he didn't "push the laws" he intentionally sought ways to circumvent them.

Yip, he's evil alright.

 

[Bullrush]

Agree fully, but unfortunately more than one back chasing through a kick has been known to throw themselves onto the ground at the slightest brush.

That said we can't condemn their "gamesmanship" which I personally call unsportsmanlike behaviour, without also condemning the player who commit intentional acts of foul play and those who professionally act against the laws "cheating" (aka pushing the laws) to win games.

There is little doubt that Whitelock exaggerated the extent of the injury done to him. That doesn't excuse Latu for lifting (and Skelton if he realised that Latu was lifting from easing him to the ground). However (and I'm saying this to you Rod Kafer) Whitelock should be criticsed for intentionally entering the maul from the side and killing the ball intentionally to prevent a try. Kafer believes it was good play because he got away with it. I don't, I see him as a cheat. If he does it habitually he is no better than a drug cheat. McCaw could have been a great of the game and most will argue that he is, I argue the opposite because he didn't "push the laws" he intentionally sought ways to circumvent them, such as his try in the Beldisloe Cup a few years ago detaching and running from the scrum before the ball was out. Again many would say fair play because he got away with it.

I say try to play within the rules or don't play.

This has got to be a wind-up - surely?!?!

McCaw is apparently as bad a drug cheat who intentionally worked out ways to break the rules?!?

Get back on the meds

 

[Bullrush]

If that was someone like Dominic Bird or Jordan Taufua putting that shit on, Kiwis would be going the thrashwank about how good their "hard men" are at the "niggle".

But push McCaw out of his obstructionist channel with a decent shoulder in the back and suddenly fucking lynch mobs pop up all over Canterbury, brother-cousins and sister-wives all, ready to try and find a tree suitably tall and strong enough to string Skelton up! That it was given as a penalty is a fucking joke to start with; Todd should have been done for changing his line to obstruct Skelton, before Skelton took matters into his own hands and snotted the geriatric bloke in #7.

And you watch: if they beat us in Bledisloe, every prick in a black jersey will be saying "Thet's whut ya git for doing thet to Ruchue, bro!" like its some kind of cosmic fucking karma cycle and not two completely different competitions.

For years they've accused us of being soft, but when we finally stuck it up them, they just bitched like the bitchy little bitches they are. Its like Bitchy McBitchington and the Bitches bitched their bitchy way to Bitchville.

FFS.

And this is exactly how you get classed as soft. I'm struggling to think of too many occasions - if any - that Kiwis here on GAGR have pointed to niggle and cheap-shots and classed it as 'hard man' shit.

Our hard men are guys like Brad Thorn, Jerome Kaino, Brodie Rettalick, Kevin Mealamu etc who never really get into niggle or bullshit but are fucken rocks. EVen backs like Rene Ranger Julian Savea who can run it hard and tackle hard.

Shoulder charging people in the back is not 'hard'. There is nothing tough or hard about that - it's an easy cheap shot and guys who practice this kind of 'hard man' philosophy usually gt found out, especially come Test time.

 

[qwerty51]

Yeah Mealamu has never done anything dirty..

 

[Bullrush]

Yeah Mealamu has never done anything dirty..

In a 15yr career you can find 2 things - Skelton is already over-taken him with 2 cheap shots in 1 game.

You know nothing about rugby if you seriously think Mealamu is a dirty player or is known for cheap shots or his niggle.

 

[FrankLind]

Shoulder charging people in the back is not 'hard'. There is nothing tough or hard about that - it's an easy cheap shot and guys who practice this kind of 'hard man' philosophy usually gt found out, especially come Test time.

If Skelton can restrain this though, he looks bloody good. He's really come on.

I hope he starts to get that I am tough guy enforcer thing in his head, and then massively oversteps the mark at a key point in the WC.