Waratahs - post-season think

[I like to watch]

They do not look like they are suffering fatigue or are stale when wearing Gold.
Maybe all they need is a month away from Driver ave.

 

[Scarfman]

Good comments waju.

The one I disagree with, though, is the x-factor. That's what shits me about the Tahs under Hickey and the Wallabies under Deans. There doesn't seem to be a game plan except - give it to Kurtley (or JOC (James O'Connor), or Quade), and hope they pull a miracle chip / grubber / backhanded pass. I would much prefer that the attack was constucted to break down defences without superstars (like the Crusaders, I always thought).

 

[waratahjesus]

Agree with you scarf, wasn't saying x-factor in regard to something to rely on to get the job done but rather someone who has the ability to back themselves like a cooper, Beale, JOC (James O'Connor) etc. we have a Very solid unit with a lot of decent to good players in the backs and they should posess the ability to perform much better than they have shown this year. I'm just not sure looking at them that when a game is 50/50 like so many have been this year any of thm posess the self confidence to back themselves. Maybe that is a reflection on the team itself, yet I still feel we lack spark.

 

[vidiot]

On Rocky, and his absence.

Not many minutes, but in his position Dave Dennis was probably close to the Tahs best player and became a capped wallaby. So you can't really say it cost us all that much. He was made captain by a player vote, followed by foley recommending him to the board.

He was absent right from the start. It costs you not to have clear leadership on the field for a season. Wrong captain. Nice democracy, though.

 

[wamberal]

They are a rabble at the moment. Sad to see.

 

[waratahjesus]

On Rocky, and his absence.
He was absent right from the start. It costs you not to have clear leadership on the field for a season. Wrong captain. Nice democracy, though.

The decision to appoint hangers captain was the bigger concern. I was fine with Elsom being elected and I'm sure there were hopes that from the 6 week mark he would be back and a constant in the side. Hangers was a stop gap appointment and the position should have gone to Robinson who clearly wants the role.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Good comments waju.

The one I disagree with, though, is the x-factor. That's what shits me about the Tahs under Hickey and the Wallabies under Deans. There doesn't seem to be a game plan except - give it to Kurtley (or JOC (James O'Connor), or Quade), and hope they pull a miracle chip / grubber / backhanded pass. I would much prefer that the attack was constucted to break down defences without superstars (like the Crusaders, I always thought).

But this is what our national rugby mindset produces: all 3 were 5/8's at junior level. None of them is a player who facilitates the performance of the other 14, rather they are the type of players who need a facilitator inside them to let them sing. My man love for Dan Carter knows few bounds and if these 3 could play outside someone with his vision and creativity then we would see what we're looking for.
Until we start picking 5/8's who constructively facilitate the creation of opportunities for others we will always be looking for the miracle play to snatch unlikely victory.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The decision to appoint hangers captain was the bigger concern. I was fine with Elsom being elected and I'm sure there were hopes that from the 6 week mark he would be back and a constant in the side. Hangers was a stop gap appointment and the position should have gone to Robinson who clearly wants the role.

WJ, one poster on this forum boldly predicted in January that Elsom would not come back at any time like they were saying publicly. My source in saying that was inside the tent: they knew there was a huge problem from January but they decided to pretend to us that the problem was of manageable dimensions.
On a similar note: where is Dan Vickerman?

 

[Bardon]

The problems identified are all real, but there also problems the Tahs team fully understand. Several times this season they have said the exact same thing only to ad a positive to the end of it and have people criticize their inability to see the problem. The question upon seasons end that we should be asking is why wasn't it addressed during the season and the answer is simple.

The players gave up as the organisation had given up.

The team played the exact same way the board played, with a lack of communication and urgency. The pieces of the jigsaw were there but there was a complete lack of urgency to put them together, no one gave a shit about the beautiful picture at the end and in doing so it became about going through the motions.

Growden hit the nail on the head a fair few weeks ago that if you go and watch training there was no joy whatsoever on display. The guys never had fun, never bonded and when things didn't work out game one that only got worse. Jake whites comment of the brumbies being closer cos they have nothing better to do in Canberra than hang out rings very true.

Foleys major problem was he expected the status quo from last year, he believed as a couple of the assistants did in my opinion that the team that the core squad from 2011 that made the finals with so many injuries would lay a platform that he only had to tinker with to achieve more. When it didn't I believe it caught him by surprise. I still rate foley as a coach, it's up to him now to mold something in an image he creates.

Offseason also has to result in a player with x-factor being recruited, I don't know who that is or were their coming from, but the breaks kurtley and burgess used to make usually resulted in at least one extra try, one extra try was the difference of a very fine margin.

Scarfy - lastly, I have never made an excuse for my team, only offered balance to counter a level of assassination that reached fever pitch and veered off the realm of reality. I believe in fact, it should factor in to both sides of any discussion.

1st off let me say this is the best post I've read from you on the Tahs since I joined the site.

On the bonding and S&C I think the way to solve that would be to take the entire squad to Spala for a boot camp. It's the place in Poland with the croygenic chambers to help recovery. It's in a forest in the middle of nowhere, has excellent sporting facilities and not much else. Traditionally teams that go there also do a visit to Auschwitz. If the squad can't bond and improve their fitness there then there's probably no hope for this group of players.

 

[Bruce Ross]

1st off let me say this is the best post I've read from you on the Tahs since I joined the site.

On the bonding and S&C I think the way to solve that would be to take the entire squad to Spala for a boot camp. It's the place in Poland with the croygenic chambers to help recovery. It's in a forest in the middle of nowhere, has excellent sporting facilities and not much else. Traditionally teams that go there also do a visit to Auschwitz. If the squad can't bond and improve their fitness there then there's probably no hope for this group of players.

Apparently "cryocenic chamber therapy is the local or general use of low temperatures in medical therapy or the removal of heat from a body part". That being so, since their foundation the Brumbies have been using it season-round at Acapulco-by-the-Lake with mixed success.
.

 

[Schadenfreude]

It's a shame that internationals start so soon, think all the Tahs players could do with a month or more right away from rugby. They need to losen up and have some fun.

it's cute you think they deserve gold jerseys. Bless.

 

[Bardon]

Here's a few other changes I would make in no particular order:

1. Get rid of this 8 man leadership group. The last thing you need running a team on the field is a committee, we didn't even pick our captain from this group. Make it clear and simple 1 Captain, 1 Vice Captain and then a young guy with leadership potential for when the other 2 aren't around. Pick these guys based on attitude and injury profile so they're likely to be available for most games. The other senior players should be mature enough to contribute to the team positively without needing to be part of some special group, if they can't then they know where the door is. Or maybe they don't, knowing Tah land "sign posting way to exit" is probably still on the todo list.

2. Look at other teams in S15 and also in the NH and see who has the best S&C programs. Then hire a new S&C coach preferably from one of those clubs with the remit of implementing the best elements of all those programs.

3. Make Foley responsible for coaching only and bring in someone above him as Director of Rugby. Doesn't have to be Chieka, just someone who either isn't familiar with the current Tahs culture or doesn't agree with it. Need someone who's going to take the organisation by the scruff of the neck and shake it until all the dead weight drops off. A guy who volunteered to be demoted is not the guy to do this. However he's a pretty good forwards coach so no need to lose that contribution. Just let him focus on what's he's good at and what he enjoys.

4. Clear out all other coaches other than Foley. Especially Gaffney and Bowen, Gaffney got so bad at Ireland backs coach that they let him go and preferred to have no backs coach than persist with him. Let the new Director of Rugby bring in who they want to.

5. Have a squad clear out. Easily 1/3 of the current squad could be let go and replaced with better options. Keep around those who really do want to put in the work to turn the franchise around. Those that don't can go and earn yen for sitting in the stands rather than dollars for taking up space in Sydney.

6. Bring in a marquee signing who'll help with the change in culture. I would have look to the NH for this as you need a seasoned player who's got a few years left in them but is looking for a new challenge rather than a retirement gig. Someone with a good work ethic more in the Gareth Delve mold than the Dani Cipriani one.

I said before that scrum half is probably the best position as what is available at the Tahs currently is nothing special. Not saying he would be perfect for the gig but someone in the Peter Stringer mold, had a lot of success in his career, great at communicating to his pack exactly what he wants from them, great work ethic, good character. Could easily have taken easy money sitting in the stands at Munster but instead chose to move to Newcastle so that he could start. Wont have an ulterior motive of resparking a club/international career in the NH. Would be around just long enough for the pick of the young guys to develop and challenge for his spot.

Yes I know the draw backs, too small for S15 rugby, prone to the odd error under pressure with a retreating pack (what SH isn't?), but someone in the mold of player is what we need. Someone who'll come in and keep their work rate up rather than lower it to the level of the slackers. A good communicator on and off the field, someone who wont just shrug their shoulders after a defeat.

7. Give a heavy discount for season tickets or what ever it's called in Australia when you pay one fee to be able to attend all home games. Give out free flags at the first few home games of next season. Fans have been treated like crap and the organisation needs to start making recompense.

8. Plan ahead all the time. Even if the Tahs bounce back next year and make it into the finals there will still be stuff to work on. When the team does well it tends to lift everything else. But a smart organistation makes hay while the sun shines.

9. Get the players out into the community more either with mini coaching camps or helping with local charities especially in non rugby areas or areas of NSW where the only chance people normally get to see them is to travel to Sydney for a game.

10. Resign Tom Carter, yes the guy is a bit of a dick at times and I don't like the way he winds people up. But he's a solid player and he loves the Tahs and he'll work his ass off to do what's needed. The fact that a guy with virtues missing is a lot of the squad was scape goated for the poor performances says a lot about what's wrong with the franchise.

That's it for now but I'm sure I'll think of more stuff to add since next season is so far off.

 

[Athilnaur]

But this is what our national rugby mindset produces: all 3 were 5/8's at junior level. None of them is a player who facilitates the performance of the other 14, rather they are the type of players who need a facilitator inside them to let them sing. My man love for Dan Carter knows few bounds and if these 3 could play outside someone with his vision and creativity then we would see what we're looking for.
Until we start picking 5/8's who constructively facilitate the creation of opportunities for others we will always be looking for the miracle play to snatch unlikely victory.

I won't belabour the point but to characterise Cooper as a selfish 5/8 is untrue, and suspect re Beale.

Nor is it clear to me how the comment advances discussion about the Tahs.

Apologies for being so direct IS, I just think it is a poor analogy.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I won't belabour the point but to characterise Cooper as a selfish 5/8 is untrue, and suspect re Beale.

Nor is it clear to me how the comment advances discussion about the Tahs.

Apologies for being so direct IS, I just think it is a poor analogy.

Where does it say selfish? Youre not belabouring a point you're completely missing it.
Its relevant because someone - to whom I was replying - raised the x factor issue.

 

[Gnostic]

For a few weeks I haven't posted anything to do with Rugby. I thought why bother, I would get accused of proliferating "White Noise" again, and to be honest the continued excuse making, not only from many of those here but elsewhere and in the Tahs themselves have left me fatigued and after a lifetime of being a Tahs supporter fatigued and uncaring.

I would direct people back to the dabate of 18 months ago regarding the Tahs in the thread I started. I ask you what has changed from then? If anything the play itself has got worse. The results have followed on from the dire play.

It continues to astound me that with half a page of comment on the siutaion of Mowen not being resigned, it takes another page before somebody mentions the obvious, Mowen left the Tahs as a stop gap 8 and 6 and walked into the captaincy of a Brumbies team that nobody gave any real chance to. They lost both their 10's and still played with more structure in their attack than the Tahs. They kicked more than the Tahs but they executed (up until the last two weeks) with far better accuracy.

Indeed the Rebels played to their potential a few times and beat the Crusaders and arguably should have beaten the Stormers last night, without their stars in JOC (James O'Connor) and Beale and made entirely of discards, imports and the unwanted apart from those two.

I expect the derisive "Nostradamus" comments I have received in the past for saying it but this result was totally predictable and a few of us predicted it.

I will say now unless there is the cleanout that has been called for very little will change next year.

So summarise this season in isolation (which isn't the way to view this IMO):-
1) Recruitment of Vicerman and Elsom who some of use stated right from the start would play a limitted if any role in the campaign.
2) Obvious lack of fitness. After week 4 it was aparent that the side wasn't fit and this contributed vastly to a lot of sides tactics, case in point last week J. White said (to paraphrase) he knew the Tahs would tire and fall apart and the Brumbies were fitter.
3) Elsom "elected" Captain. Elected by the same players who pushed for a reduced pre-season load? It should have been obvious to all that Elsom wasn't a Captain from his time at the Wallabies. If that didn't do it the fact he wasn't fit should have decided the question. Leadership group - what a joke when Hangers is slected to be "match Captain" from outside that group. Nobody took ownership at any time this season on the field.
4) In previous posts I decried the lack of skills from the Tahs. That hasn't changed.
5) Play structures - this is partly a factor of the Tahs being unfit. Reagrdless of who is in the side this has been a problem for a long time. When Beale was there he would resort to the chip continuously as nobody was in a position to back up and nobody worked that hard off the ball to get in that position, including him. The Tahs are incapable with the exception of maybe one first phase play per game of contructing any attack to break down a defence. The habit of Tahs 9's to meer cat at the ruck looking for an option, any option has nothing to do with who is at 9, it has to do with the total lack of urgency from the Tahs, forwards and backs.
6) Over-reliance on "big names" to do something. They play TPN and Palu into the ground expecting them to do "something" in attack and defence to win a game. The Timani brothers have been selected for the same reason (and by Deans too I might add who may as well be the Tahs coach/director as the Wallabies play the same) and whilst I will not buy into the hype and negativity about the individuals I will say I have seen nothing to justify the selection of a player who was another clearly injured at the start of the season. They may well have potenital but in the Tahs structures when has potential been realised in the last 10 years? Contrast with the Props and young locks from SA and NZ and indeed the locks from the Brumbies and Rebels. For all the hype surrounding S. Timani's physique it seems to escape most that Pyle, Douglas and others are as tall and the same weight or in the case of Douglas heavier and none of them make the meters with ball in hand that N. Sharpe does.

Finally without the cleanout required not only will results next year not change, they will be playing in empty stadia and the Tahs will again be taken over by JON if there is any cash left in those coffers after paying Deans and himself that is.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

For a few weeks I haven't posted anything to do with Rugby. I thought why bother, I would get accused of proliferating "White Noise" again, and to be honest the continued excuse making, not only from many of those here but elsewhere and in the Tahs themselves have left me fatigued and after a lifetime of being a Tahs supporter fatigued and uncaring.

Finally without the cleanout required not only will results next year not change, they will be playing in empty stadia and the Tahs will again be taken over by JON if there is any cash left in those coffers after paying Deans and himself that is.

deserves more than a mere "like": great post

 

[waratahjesus]

it's cute you think they deserve gold jerseys. Bless.

This debate serves no merrit other than loyalty to a state team. Several waratahs players have gotten opportunity and performed at international level. It's nice to think that every player in form should be rushed into an international side and will reward there selection with success, but the reality of that in Australian rugby is completely untrue. An international team has to be built on combinations, balance and game plan. Just because Qld make the finals doesn't automatically make their players perfect for the next step. I don't agree with all the selections but we have a coaching staff in place and they should be given the opportunity to pick the players they want to construct a team they want. Debate will rage on but like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) when he was at the brumbies, his continued form for the wallabies warranted his selection regardless of his superugby form.

 

[waratahjesus]

As a collective unit can we stop discussing Ben Mowen, the guy decided to leave, he isn't a better player than palu or Dennis. His form isn't better at the Brumbies, just as Beales isn't any better for the rebels. He fits in well there and has rode the crest of a wave built on the back of a team exceeding expectations. It isn't a reflection on NSW, it's good for Australian rugby that talent has spread and he has a starting opportunity.

 

[Gnostic]

NO WJ but he IS a Captain, something the Tahs lacked badly this year.

I would suggest that Dennis should have been selected (as opposed to elected) Captain this year, but then he didn't get a start at any stage in that role did he.

 

[waratahjesus]

NO WJ but he IS a Captain, something the Tahs lacked badly this year.

I would suggest that Dennis should have been selected (as opposed to elected) Captain this year, but then he didn't get a start at any stage in that role did he.

No he didn't. Nor did a lot of other blokes. Would mowen or the "selection" of Dennis served the waratahs better than what happened? It's just speculation.

By this are you also suggesting that mowen is responsible for the brumbies winning more games this year? Or that he has played a part in something bigger?