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Waratahs Crusaders Friday 31st May 5:40pm AEST

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Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
There was a similar reaction to the reds vs brumbies all aussie grudge match. I think he is actually quite a knowledgeable referee but he doesn't seem to have the guts to make the big calls in pressure situations/ games and lacks the ability to control it in general. That was very obvious in that last scrum where he kept resetting hoping the ball would just be cleared. A penalty needed to be awarded regardless of the way it went, and he would have to cop the criticism regardless. Seems to be a requirement of the referee job "be able to cop sh*t from left right and centre after a game".
When the game's flowing and all is well, he looks like he knows what he is doing. As soon as one or both sides put him under pressure he squibs it. His body language and facial expressions in these times say "get me out of here", "will someone sound that siren I want to get off".
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
I disagree, I like it when refs call "ball out", because otherwise there's plenty of situations where the defending team deems the ball to be out, or looks at the ref and isn't sure because they might get pinged. And that's just shit. They need to know when they are allowed to react, because the ref might see differently from anyone else on the field.

A pet peeve of mine is when the ball is out the back of the ruck and then another player comes in and puts a leg behind it as if to put it back inside the ruck. Then defenders come to steal the ball and ref pings them and says ball was in the ruck. Once the ball is out, it's out.
I'dlike for every ref to communicate as well as Joubert does.

If the ref is going to call "ball out" he has to do it at every ruck/scrum. If he does it for some and not others, it's worse than not doing it at all.

Your second point is spot on. Teams do it all the time and the refs consistently let them get away with it. Returning the ball into a ruck is a penalty and if the ball was out and a player puts his foot over it and binds onto his team mates, all his team mates in front of him are offside and liable to penalty for offside and/or obstruction.
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
And if you watch Genia for the Reds, he quite often actually rolls ball back into ruck with his foot, never gets called, but I always thought he was putting whole pack offside. Still if noone pulls him up.....
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
And if you watch Genia for the Reds, he quite often actually rolls ball back into ruck with his foot, never gets called, but I always thought he was putting whole pack offside. Still if noone pulls him up...
And if he was ever penalised, you could be sure that Marto would refer to it as a "technical penalty".:)
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
Little late to the party but I felt at the time (and still do) that subbing Lucas and Barnes on was a mistake.

McKibbin was actually playing and kicking well and Horne getting over the line regularly is quite important to their pattern. Their momentum died quickly after the substitutions.

Bruce Ross

Allegedly, playing rugby will tire your pack. Who knew!
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Little late to the party but I felt at the time (and still do) that subbing Lucas and Barnes on was a mistake.

McKibbin was actually playing and kicking well and Horne getting over the line regularly is quite important to their pattern. Their momentum died quickly after the substitutions.

Bruce Ross

Allegedly, playing rugby will tire your pack. Who knew!

What's really strange (to me anyway) is that Cheika kept backline subs to a minimum for most of the competition. For better or worse he stuck with McKibbin and Foley and McKibbin really started to improve and at least formed a good combination with Foley. Some weeks Lucas didn't get on at all or played a token 5 mins and then against the Bulls and Crusaders, all of a sudden backline changes and close losses. On both occasions the whole match changed after the changes were made. I thought Horne has played quite well all year - Barnes is a different type of player and the game must change when that replacement is made. It worked against the Brumbies, but not in the other 2 matches.
A learning curve for all.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Anyone think it's strange Volavola has been virtually blacklisted since Canberra?

I was having a browse through the Tahs website. Talk abour black lists:

How much time have the following had this year:
Ollie Atkins
Damien Fitzpatrick - Injured
Grayson Hart
Michael Hodge
Luke Holmes - too much
Greg Peterson

Talk about black lists.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
As well as "sapping out the energy out of your pack", USAR, I imagine it would also be a bit tiring for the poor bastards doing the tackling.
.
Yeah but tries practically don't count if you "tire" your piggies while doing it!!

I think I've hit my sarcasm quote for the week.
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
I was having a browse through the Tahs website. Talk abour black lists:

How much time have the following had this year:
Ollie Atkins
Damien Fitzpatrick - Injured
Grayson Hart
Michael Hodge
Luke Holmes - too much
Greg Peterson

Talk about black lists.

Those players do not deserve game time. Remember Cheika did not sign them. He did sign Volavola however.
 

BPC

Phil Hardcastle (33)
"Under 4", eh, Rassie? That's a maximum of 3 phases. And what do you recommend they do with it if they haven't scored on the third phase?
.

Maybe Australian teams should bring in a rule that if you haven't scored after, say, five phases you should kick the ball to the other team.

Why hasn't anyone thought of such a revolutionary concept before?
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Maybe Australian teams should bring in a rule that if you haven't scored after, say, five phases you should kick the ball to the other team.

Why hasn't anyone thought of such a revolutionary concept before?
So you want the Tahs to hold onto it for 4 more phases when Barnes is on? Could be onto something.

Deleted content

This is utterly ridiculous: its almost offensive. There is room for the view that the guy is lax in many areas of the game but to suggest that he has this fiendishly clever plan of throwing all and sundry off the scent by double/tripple crossing unsuspecting visitors between the first and second halves is almost worse than a Scooby Doo cartoon "plot".

As a matter of interest what's the suggested motive for this skulduggery?
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Deleted content

Two points:
1. There is a big difference between saying a ref had a bad game or is incompetent, as opposed to saying "xyz is a cheat".

On that topic, firstly, I suggest you learn Hanlon's Razor. It nearly always applies in this case.

Secondly, if you cry cheat, you better have some proof. Some broad "favours kiwi sides" doesn't prove much. Where's the stats? Not just games won by kiwi teams (as, statistically, kiwi teams have been better in SupeRugby since it began), but real stats - penalties blown, how they differ in games, and so on. And the clincher: are they real penalties? Plenty of teams tend to infringe in different parts of the field. If you are so sure, spend some time analysing games, cut some highlight videos to show inconsistency, and then see where it gets you.

I ask you: how can you say that a ref has an "agenda" to "blow early penalties in favour of the team he is ulitmately working against"? If you are putting it along broad national lines, I suggest that's just a little simplistic. See point above. Proof, please.

By the sounds of it, you're looking for cases of bias where it doesn't exist.

2. Home game bias is proven phenomenon, I believe. If I were a betting man, I'd say that three things relate to who gets the rub of the green: 1) home team, 2) who is currently dominant, 3) relative position of the teams on the ladder. It all shouldn't matter, and for top, experienced refs it won't, but for others it will.
 

Redsman

Allen Oxlade (6)
Fair enough 'Hanlon's razor' - its a feasible concept - perhaps an increase in home town favoritism in this particular case... but what about his performance re Stormers / Auckland and even when reffed against reds at home v sharks - in my books he certainly appears to have an agenda. Incidentally I was onto Bryce before the mainstream too and you're saying he was or wasnt a culprit of the razor?

I dont have the time to endlessely mull on statistics on saying this IF someone has the time and knows where to dig for it - Im sure correlations would be found. If not happy to apologise for any emotional outbursts.

Just remember Kiwis love to play close to rules as possible - perhaps this includes their refereeing.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Jackson is actually a good ref overall - he has a better feel for the flow of the game, as a recent player, than a lot of refs do. But he can be indecisive, usually when he hasn't put his foot down early enough.

Think someone above summed it up - the removal of Horne from the game robbed the Tahs of momentum, as did the replacement of McKibbin who was playing better than he had for weeks.

Throw in the fact that the Crusaders remembered how to tackle and hold onto the ball, plus the crucial loss of leadership with Dennis off, and you get good conditions for a bad result.

There were poor decisions against the Tahs, but it was their own fault.

The other explanation to apply is Occam's Razor - to phrase in layman's terms: the simplest explanation is often the best.
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
17 phases. That is really the problem. You should really do it under 4 otherwise you are only sapping out the energy out of your pack

Crap, Rassie, absolute crap. The beauty of rugby is the attacking team has to have the skill to retain the ball for 17 phases while the defence has the ability to hold them out. It's a compliment to our game both teams had the skill and patience to perform for 17 phases.

What about the times a defensive team holds out for 8+ phases and gets the ball out of the red zone?
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
Watched a replay of this match last night, with many slo-mos for the contentious decisions. My observations:

1. What part of Law 20.3 Binding in the Scrum does Jackson not understand? The Kiwi commentators, especially Willie Lose, were uncharacteristically one-eyed but even they were surprised Jackson and/or his assistants weren't picking up on this. I'm quite aware Kiwi rugby players in general are bloody sharp adjusting their play according to a ref's rulings, but missing this is outright incompetence in my book.

2. Jackson made a series of shockers between the 60 and 65 minute mark. First of all was the penalty for Horne offside; this occurred on the 10m line and showed Rob to be in line (and onside) with the other Tahs backs. The following lineout yielded another penalty to the Saders for barging in the lineout. The reason the Tahs' jumper reached over the Saders #2 was because the ball was thrown so far over their side he had to reach over the red body to try and grab the ball. I don't reckon he did anything other than touch the other bloke's torso while competing for the pill. Then there was the TMO try; what an appalling sequence of events. First of all Jackson DIDN'T see the ball grounded. As a former ref if a player goes over the goal line with the ball grasped to his stomach and no opponent within reach I'd award a try every time. But I'm not a Super ref, Jackson should've either awarded it immediately (I wouldn't've had a problem if he did) or he should've asked for evidence of grounding. The question, "please give me a reason why I shouldn't award a try" should've evoked the reply, "because there was no evidence of the ball being grounded". That's a fucking good reason! Then he had the gall to pull Dennis out and mention some penalty he was going to award for I don't know what; it couldn't've been collapsing the maul as the Saders players were on their feet as they went over the goal line. Jackson looked rattled here and seemed to be making decisions up after he'd thought about what he'd previously buggered up.

3. The Hooper penalty for off side. I've NEVER heard a ref call "not out", it's always "stay back 7". And neither should they. I replayed this about four times and Jackson seemed to say the ball was out, but it also seemed he was still trying to make up his mind what he'd said.

4. Jackson didn't apply the same standards for offside to the Saders he did to the Tahs. I found about five occasions when the red players were in front of the last feet and not called. It still amazes me why TJ/ARs don't take full control of offside infringements at the breakdown. In the instance of Horne's penalty Jackson wasn't in line with the Tahs side of the ruck yet he felt he was able to rule on Rob's offside. But he didn't take the same view of Saders' offsides.

5. The knock on after the last kickoff occurred at the 74:20 minute mark and the first scrum was finally joined at 75:10. For me that was bad enough but the subsequent four resets (with many instances of the Saders' back row unbinding!) and a four minute scrum was one the most appallingly incompetent game management instances I've seen. The Saders had a vested interest in wasting time, and should've been marked severely for it.


Having watched rugby for too many years to count, and I'll admit for the vast majority of matches I've watched I've had an emotional interest in the result, I'm quite aware refs sometimes get a "set" against one side for some reason or another. It could be bad-mouthing the ref, poor discipline, constant questioning of decisions or something else. Good refs SHOULD get over this but they're all human and sometimes they don't. I dislike it intensely when it's obvious a ref's looking at one team for infringements but not the other; sadly, it happens occasionally. And I reckon Jackson was reffing the Tahs on Friday night and not the Saders. I couldn't find any evidence the Tahs had done anything to upset him before the 60 minute mark. It's easy to be a good ref when the game's flowing and nothing untoward happens, but when things get difficult I reckon Jackson chokes. As he did on Friday.


On other matters, twice in the last two matches Cheika's played Barnes in place of Horne at 12, and twice it hasn't worked. 'Nuff said.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Interestingly McKibbon made the PR S15 side of the week, I think they have a point re his replacement, but with the kms McKibbon covered he may have been blowing pretty hard

9 Brendan McKibbin (Waratahs) - Many view the 57th minute as being a major turning point in the game at AMI Stadium. McKibbin was subbed despite playing a blinder, which does beg the question why coaches persist with pre-planned changes when things are peachy.
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8755509,00.html
 
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