Waratahs 2021

[Drew]

When you’ve got players that’d usually be in the middle of the rookies and the old hard heads having to take the leadership role you’re in trouble.

 

[TSR]

Hunt, Simmons and Hooper would have completely transformed this team IMO.

They’d improve it significantly - particularly if you threw and experienced THP in there, even if he was your bench player.

You would still need a better run with injuries and/or another 4-5 quality squad players across the team to have the Tahs fighting with the top teams.

 

[dru]

Hunt, Simmons and Hooper would have completely transformed this team IMO.

I was going to add Hooper but I decided not to push it. Could not agree more all the same.

 

[dru]

Iv wasted everyones time with that and my own.

Not even slightly.

Not a waste of time at all.
Readers can either scroll by or get engaged with your interesting analysis.

Well maybe not simply scroll on but yes I scanned rather than read. But if the same thrust came from A qPR supporter on the Reds thread I'd be into the minute detail without a doubt.

Keep it up mate. It's the sort of stuff that makes G@GR.

 

[Derpus]

I mean. Lets think about what just one of those players would add (or, in other words, what we lost).

Hunt:
- guidance for Harrison on his outside
- much needed positional awareness and defensive starch in midfield
- tactical awareness
- strong direct running
- maturity and experience in the backline

In my opinion the least important of the three and yet he still brings critical skills that were not replaced and it was on the record that Penney wanted him retained.

Board a pack of slack jawed fuckwits.

 

[Derpus]

Does Hooper come back next year?

 

[Rob42]

Another example of Tahs management ineptitude. Played last week at Homebush to empty stands a week before the Easter Show. players might come to the Shute Shield, et al, to have a go at making it, but a lot of the players start playing in rural areas, think HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes), Hanigan, Newsome to name just a few. Every article about any on them always mentions Cowra, Coonamble and Inverell. You’d think they might tie in that connection with the people coming to the big smoke for the show. Also, the NRL and NBL are doing Show entry, game ticket deals.

I'd suggest the NRL has this weekend and next covered at Homebush for exactly that reason - they get first choice.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Does Hooper come back next year?

Yes.

 

[Rebels3]

Ok allow me a different perspective - and please bare in mind we were looking at this weeks tahs team in a one off game with both teams have equal preparation

Front Row
Bell Poreki HJ
VS
Gillespie Vailanu Metcher
Im suggesting the SS front row holds here at scrum time which is there primary job . Gillespie and Metcher both grizzled veterans who have scrummed against better players than both Bell and HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)- just think about some of the great Sydney Uni front rows of last 6- 8 years. Tahs front rows better runners granted but in the tight stuff?? Jury out . We agree hookers rule each other out
Even

Jeremy Williams and Max Douglas
Vs
Jack Margin and Nathan Du Tuit
Not exactly a battle for the ages this one . But at least I can say Margin and Du Tuiot have proven they can handle it against men . Douglas and Williams - picked on potential.
Im giving SS a narrow victory in a poor fight

Sinclaire Harris Tizzano
Vs
Icely Sio Poidevan
Im taking Icely - bigger stronger faster , Sincalire crafty and a work horse. Both proven at Shute at least.
Sio everyday . Harris IF he lives up to potential will be miles better but right now the kid has done nothing against men. As someone mentioned Sio has played professionally , won premierships and at 28 not over the hill . Harris better athlete yep but show me a video of Sio going backwards in a collision
Tizzano - wins hands down .
SS victory

Gordon Vs Goddard
Gordon wins . But not as lop sided as one thinks .

Harrison Vs Iona
Unpopular opinion . Harrison is over rated . Plays like he is still in the all conquering Randwick colts team. Only thing we have seen from him is ball running and brilliant left boot. Isn't a 10s primary job to organise the team and facilitate the players around him ? Does he make players around him better ? ( counter argument is the players around him suck - well pick others ) also has a 3/9 Super Rugby record , factor in NRC he is I believe 3/12 wins at senior rugby .
Yes Iona played and failed at franchises but is there just a slight possibility that he has matured and gotten better with experience ? Certainly looked so last year and the brumbies saw enough to keep him around .
Even

Foketi and Periese
Vs
Muliufi and Tasi
Great battle . Power ball runners .
Interesting to note Foketi hasn't exactly dominated Muliufi at Shute Shield level and his team has twice lost to Muliufi team in finals game ( yes millions of other factors ) . Lets call even .
Tasi was actually offered Tahs contract by Gibson and then Gibson was sacked thus lost his deal . But Im willing to concede Periese here as bloke is bloody powerful.
Tahs slightly

Newsome Ramm Maddocks
Vs
Turner Davis Clements
Il give Tahs the edge here .
However Newsome is a good Shute Shield player - send me the videos of him tearing up Shute Shield please! And let me know his strengths as a player.
Ramm completely unproven everywhere . Couple of good runs in 2020 .
Maddocks - depends which Maddocks turns up . Wallaby one week , reserve grader the next
The SS guys are ehhh. Turner can certainly score a try how would he go in a good team?, Davis is solid yet unspectacular , Clements been best fullback in SS last 2 years , size might hold him back.

Iv wasted everyones time with that and my own .
However to suggest that this Fridays nights tahs team minces the club rugby battlers ..

Not a waste at all. As long as it doesn’t get personal all opinions are worth the read. Having a different view point is a positive, as long as both sides of the spectrum are happy to listen and self evaluate.

These are the discussions that will hopefully educate me on something I don’t know

 

[Drew]

I'd suggest the NRL has this weekend and next covered at Homebush for exactly that reason - they get first choice.

You’d hope that’s the case.

 

[ShuteFan1]

It’s an interesting argument Shutefan1 - and personally the enjoy reading a different perspective like the one you put up.

I have no knowledge of the players you are putting up from Shute Shield - so I am not in a position to question you on the direct comparisons. And I do think some licence should be allowed to re-frame the argument a bit. From your comments, I assume your argument is not so much ‘could these players outplay the current Waratahs tomorrow’ so much as ‘if you took these Shute Shield players and put them into the professional environment that the Tahs players are being afforded, would you get a better outcome.’ If that is your argument then it is quite subjective/theoretical one, but I’m sure there is some merit to it. But I would make a couple of counter points -
- the very nature of squad management is that you have to back a particular horse, and you generally have to do it young. Sometimes you’ll get it right, sometimes wrong. No matter how well a team does there will always be a few that slips through the net. So, to me, what you are rallying against is not the core problem. Swapping out 2-3 players isn’t really going to make a significant difference. The two big issues relevant to your point are the poor long term squad management and the poor connection between the Tahs & Shute Shield. One of the poor consequences of this IMO, was the failure to embrace NRC for what it was - a chance to bridge the gap between the premier club comps in Australia and professional rugby. I’m somewhat surprised at your indifference to NRC given the opportunity that it provide for so many good players, in particular the late bloomers, to press their case. Regardless of opinions, no one in Australian rugby has a vested interest in holding back the best talent (sorry - I know you want to leave the NRC argument behind, but I just find it extremely ironic in this case)
- I think your opening comparison between the front rows underlines the biggest flaw in your overall argument. The default that scrumming ability outranks everything else for a front rower hasn’t been true in international rugby for at least 20 yrs. People love the meat and potatoes analogy - but honestly it’s horseshit. I’m not saying scrumming isn’t important - it is a vital core skill, but there is so much more to the modern front rower and they can’t get away with being great at the scrums but sub standard elsewhere. Otherwise every team would have a 5 foot tall power lifter as their tight head prop. Ala'alatoa is a great example of this. Allan is generally a very sound scrummager. But what makes him so good is all the detail in the rest of his work. He is a strong defender, good ball runner, good at the breakdown, very strong in the maul and has an excellent work rate. HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) & Bell have some way to go, but they offer very strong all round games with plenty of upside. Sure, in an ideal world they’d be learning their trade behind other guys, but only if those other guys are good all round players.
With regards to your locks - I note your comments around the fact that Margin & Du Toit have proved they can handle it against men. And I get that argument - but I am very wary of it. But if you go down that path then so too have Wykes and Whetton. What they can’t do is dominate other men. Or even achieve parity in most cases. The Tahs don’t need a couple of locks who can go out there and take their beatings like a man, they need a couple of blokes who will push through and provide stability and genuine grunt. So unless Margin & Du Toit offer such an upgrade then I am reminded of the mantra of Wayne Bennett - when faced with a choice of two players of relatively similiar quality, pick the younger one every time.

I’m not going to go through the rest of your squad. But when I read it, it all seems very subjective and selective. Pat Sio might not get driven back in many tackles, but is his work rate/accuracy anywhere near super rugby level. Again, I’m not saying our pathways systems have always got it right - quite clearly that isn’t the case. But ignoring why guys like Sio, Metcher & (so far) Goddard have not kicked on is a touch naive IMO.

Anyway, this post is long enough. I guess I just feel there is an element of idealism in your post which ignores some of the realities of the gap between club rugby and the pros. But that is not to say there is no foundation to it and I do like hearing the different views on players you bring here.

Great post and thanks for the reply .

For what its worth I agree the failure if NSW to embrace the NRC was a major problem . My problem with it was that it was essentially run at a level below Shute Shield . The players were paid below minimal wage ( so older players couldn't/wouldn't play), they weren't actually getting in any additional training and NSW ran it like 20s tournament so the best players weren't getting picked.Im confident a top Shute Shield team would of beaten both NRC teams in final years. If they selected a mixture of senior guys and development players , paid them appropriately which leads to additional training hours it would of been great. Would be interested to know how QLD did to precisely .

I guess the system is fundamentally flawed . I believe ( rightly or wrongly ) we are picking too many 19,20,21 yr olds instead of guys who might be 23-25 and I think this is out of fear of missing "the next big thing ". In regards to this "Wayne Bennett - when faced with a choice of two players of relatively similiar quality, pick the younger one every time" I would love to delve into the great mans mind and see if this is applicable to 23-25yr old Vs 19-21yr old .

I guess I am also arguing given the lack of experience in tahs squad having 2-3 experienced and harden campaigners might have been beneficial but everyone counters that by saying young guys are gaining valuable experience .

Anyway just offering a different opinion . Clearly I am a Shute Shield fan ( and disillusioned Tahs fan)

 

[TSR]

100% agree a few hardened campaigners are needed, and I think your question around Wayne Bennett’s quote is very valid. Nothing is an absolute and I think Dan McKellar’s comments last year around having realistic expectations around young locks & 10s is very relevant to your point.

I think the value is in a few hardened campaigners like Hooper, Simmons & a couple like Arnold, CFS, Hunt & Holmes. For all his experience Whetton isn’t a solution - but I assume he was all they could get at the time.

If I was the Tahs, signing 2 quality locks would be an absolute priority, but I’d be making sure I held on to the two young guys as well.

 

[Drew]

Initially the ARC was meant to be a selection for a few SS teams (I.e. manly, rats, Gordon and north’s). In time that could’ve developed into the tribalism that is one of the NRCs perceived downfalls in nsw. It would’ve also blended the contracted professionals and the amateurs lifting the general standard of the amateur players and pushing the pros with more competition. Unfortunately in nsw it seems that changing of teams and their alliances held back any chance of it succeeding. If we’d followed the initial blueprint we wouldn’t have to imagine Dempsey v Sio as we would’ve seen the northern Sydney team play the western team and made our own decision. The fact we had two teams last time around means only contracted players would get a run with a few stand out SS players thrown in. I love a Saturday arvo at Coogee Oval but really believe we need a level between club and super rugby during the international season to build depth and see which club players can step up to the next level.

 

[Rebels3]

A option I always thought that could be smart if they want more than 5 teams for a NRC type comp is to have 1 of the 2 sides in NSW as 1) Tahs (minus wallabies) and 2) best of the SS from the season. Would be a great little derby with plenty to prove. What better way to prove their worth than directly going 1 on 1 with Super Rugby sides

 

[Blackadder]

Cheika rules out full-time Waratahs return | Latest Rugby News | RUGBY.com.au

Cheika says no for now

 

[KOB1987]

Cheika rules out full-time Waratahs return | Latest Rugby News | RUGBY.com.au

Cheika says no for now

I think that just means for this season, which was a given anyway. Prior to Penney's sacking he stated that he was going to use his gig with the much lauded Lebanon team at the Loig WC to see if he could coach league. Perhaps once that is over in November he will weigh up his options.

 

[Trebla]

Ok allow me a different perspective - and please bare in mind we were looking at this weeks tahs team in a one off game with both teams have equal preparation

Front Row
Bell Poreki HJ
VS
Gillespie Vailanu Metcher
Im suggesting the SS front row holds here at scrum time which is there primary job . Gillespie and Metcher both grizzled veterans who have scrummed against better players than both Bell and HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)- just think about some of the great Sydney Uni front rows of last 6- 8 years. Tahs front rows better runners granted but in the tight stuff?? Jury out . We agree hookers rule each other out
Even

Jeremy Williams and Max Douglas
Vs
Jack Margin and Nathan Du Tuit
Not exactly a battle for the ages this one . But at least I can say Margin and Du Tuiot have proven they can handle it against men . Douglas and Williams - picked on potential.
Im giving SS a narrow victory in a poor fight

Sinclaire Harris Tizzano
Vs
Icely Sio Poidevan
Im taking Icely - bigger stronger faster , Sincalire crafty and a work horse. Both proven at Shute at least.
Sio everyday . Harris IF he lives up to potential will be miles better but right now the kid has done nothing against men. As someone mentioned Sio has played professionally , won premierships and at 28 not over the hill . Harris better athlete yep but show me a video of Sio going backwards in a collision
Tizzano - wins hands down .
SS victory

Gordon Vs Goddard
Gordon wins . But not as lop sided as one thinks .

Harrison Vs Iona
Unpopular opinion . Harrison is over rated . Plays like he is still in the all conquering Randwick colts team. Only thing we have seen from him is ball running and brilliant left boot. Isn't a 10s primary job to organise the team and facilitate the players around him ? Does he make players around him better ? ( counter argument is the players around him suck - well pick others ) also has a 3/9 Super Rugby record , factor in NRC he is I believe 3/12 wins at senior rugby .
Yes Iona played and failed at franchises but is there just a slight possibility that he has matured and gotten better with experience ? Certainly looked so last year and the brumbies saw enough to keep him around .
Even

Foketi and Periese
Vs
Muliufi and Tasi
Great battle . Power ball runners .
Interesting to note Foketi hasn't exactly dominated Muliufi at Shute Shield level and his team has twice lost to Muliufi team in finals game ( yes millions of other factors ) . Lets call even .
Tasi was actually offered Tahs contract by Gibson and then Gibson was sacked thus lost his deal . But Im willing to concede Periese here as bloke is bloody powerful.
Tahs slightly

Newsome Ramm Maddocks
Vs
Turner Davis Clements
Il give Tahs the edge here .
However Newsome is a good Shute Shield player - send me the videos of him tearing up Shute Shield please! And let me know his strengths as a player.
Ramm completely unproven everywhere . Couple of good runs in 2020 .
Maddocks - depends which Maddocks turns up . Wallaby one week , reserve grader the next
The SS guys are ehhh. Turner can certainly score a try how would he go in a good team?, Davis is solid yet unspectacular , Clements been best fullback in SS last 2 years , size might hold him back.

Iv wasted everyones time with that and my own .
However to suggest that this Fridays nights tahs team minces the club rugby battlers ..

Some very good points. I will only comment on one.
The hype over Will Harrison has actually done harm to him as the expectations are so high and they are based on a few individual bright sparks in games.
In the all conquering Randwick Colts team Will Harrison only had a few games at 10. And in those games the backline never flourished. It was Donaldson at 10 where the backline was electric. Will was away with the junior Wallabies for a lot of the season and when he was back he settled in at 15. And I think he should be given a chance at 15 in super rugby, for a few reasons. Firstly, to take the pressure off him. But even more, his strengths are his running and kicking. Fullback will give him space and time to do both of these.
But the hype over Will has been enormous, the camera loves him, the journalists seem to love him, so he is always in the media. And hence expectations are unrealistic. Certainly not based on his record of playing flyhalf.
I have noticed people get aggressive whenever anyone levels any light criticism on Will. My criticism is not of him as a rugby player. He is gutsy, committed and talented. But a flyhalf needs time to learn their craft, especially if your instinct is individual.

 

[Derpus]

Some very good points. I will only comment on one.
The hype over Will Harrison has actually done harm to him as the expectations are so high and they are based on a few individual bright sparks in games.
In the all conquering Randwick Colts team Will Harrison only had a few games at 10. And in those games the backline never flourished. It was Donaldson at 10 where the backline was electric. Will was away with the junior Wallabies for a lot of the season and when he was back he settled in at 15. And I think he should be given a chance at 15 in super rugby, for a few reasons. Firstly, to take the pressure off him. But even more, his strengths are his running and kicking. Fullback will give him space and time to do both of these.
But the hype over Will has been enormous, the camera loves him, the journalists seem to love him, so he is always in the media. And hence expectations are unrealistic. Certainly not based on his record of playing flyhalf.
I have noticed people get aggressive whenever anyone levels any light criticism on Will. My criticism is not of him as a rugby player. He is gutsy, committed and talented. But a flyhalf needs time to learn their craft, especially if your instinct is individual.

So your solution is to start playing him in another role?

He's fine and doing fine.

 

[Trebla]

So your solution is to start playing him in another role?

He's fine and doing fine.

Its not a radical idea, moving a 10 to 15, or vica versa.

 

[ShuteFan1]

Some very good points. I will only comment on one.
The hype over Will Harrison has actually done harm to him as the expectations are so high and they are based on a few individual bright sparks in games.
In the all conquering Randwick Colts team Will Harrison only had a few games at 10. And in those games the backline never flourished. It was Donaldson at 10 where the backline was electric. Will was away with the junior Wallabies for a lot of the season and when he was back he settled in at 15. And I think he should be given a chance at 15 in super rugby, for a few reasons. Firstly, to take the pressure off him. But even more, his strengths are his running and kicking. Fullback will give him space and time to do both of these.
But the hype over Will has been enormous, the camera loves him, the journalists seem to love him, so he is always in the media. And hence expectations are unrealistic. Certainly not based on his record of playing flyhalf.
I have noticed people get aggressive whenever anyone levels any light criticism on Will. My criticism is not of him as a rugby player. He is gutsy, committed and talented. But a flyhalf needs time to learn their craft, especially if your instinct is individual.

I agree with you . In another thread I suggested him as a Matt Giteau type 12 because as you said his strengths are ball running and kicking and 12 ( like 15) would allow him to have some pressure taken off him in regards to organising / controlling . Looks a very instinctive player to me also . But having said that the power centres worked well on weekend .