Waratahs 2021

[WorkingClassRugger]

They're both closed shops, which is part of the problem. Some of the demands of some Sydney clubs are outlandish and are easily demolished, while other things are perfectly reasonable and would benefit the clubs and the NSWRU but there's a large degree of mutual distrust and dislike. NSWRU have over the pas 20 years gone out of their way in many cases to antagonise the clubs for no particular reason other than they could.

Struggling clubs should be supported by NSWRU but never have been. Going back years, NSWRU should have made contracted Waratah players who didn't come through a club junior system play for Parramatta or Penrith or Wests. But they allowed or encouraged these players to go to the same two or three strong clubs.

It's a bit much to ask volunteers at other clubs to volunteer extra time to help other clubs when NSWRU won't.

Promotion from Kentwell Cup has occurred over the years, but this has to come from a club which is outside of areas which are well serviced. The last clubs to come up on the basis of winning Kentwell Cup were Norths and Drummoyne. Penrith came up from Subbies on the basis of geography, so it's not strictly correct to say that there isn't a way for ambitious subbies clubs to move up.

If they chose to do so, NSWRU, SRU and the subbies could all work together and they would all benefit. There's definitely better ways to do things, but getting people to agree to them is another matter.

I think there's definitely room for subbies/juniors and the district clubs. But it requires each to properly define what they wish to be. From my perspective, its at the subbies level where the overwhelming bulk of the participation should be focused. While at the district level should be about performance and ambition. Which to me suggests a focus on quality over number. Ideally, a 1st grade, an 2nd/U23s and a Colts team. With everyone else either falling into an existing or even better establishing a new club(s) and going to work on getting more people notably kids playing the game. I'd be willing to support direct funding to Shute clubs if that were the case.

But it should also be done with efforts to create real connections between the two levels. So that the subbies teams within each district turnout to support their respective representative side. I've said it in the past but if we could get to the point where we have 10-12 clubs within each districts running teams from U6s up. Working with and linked to the district clubs. With two or more 'new' districts being developed in the west of the city. They game would be in a much healthier spot.

 

[wamberal]

Money is one thing, the large number of volunteers required is quite another ball of wax.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I was thinking this morning about the supposed lack of long-term planning, which has seen us go from premiers in 2014 to what we are today.

The issue, to me, wasn't a lack of long-term planning so much as we picked the wrong plan - on a coaching level at least.

Our plan on the surface was sound: Cheika takes us to glory, builds a system and then hands the keys to his loyal offsider Daryl Gibson, who has spent the last three years learning the ropes under the great master. He gets to drive a Ferrari and all he has to do is keep it on the road.

In reality, a few things happened that saw that plan fail. Gibson wasn't as good a coach as we'd hoped. There was an exodus of talent that we struggled to replace - Skelton, Phipps, TPN, Douglas, Jacpot, Palu, Kepu etc. And there wasn't the next level of youth there that could take the reins effectively.

There are some real similarities to the situation in the Reds a few years before, as the transition from Link to Graham saw a similar plunge in form.

So my question: is this the death of the 'assistant coach grooming' model? The idea seems sound in theory, but is there much evidence of it ever working at provincial level? Outside Steve Hansen I can't really think of a success at international level either.

Obviously there were many more problems that the coach transition model the Tahs used, but if you look back to try and chart where this all started to go wrong you probably do end up at the moment that Cheika left and gave the keys to Daryl.
.

Over what period did the Tahs lose all those Players Barb, If over a relatively short timeframe, then wouldn't it be more likely that the failure to have sufficient next level of youth on the books lies pre-Gibson?

 

[I like to watch]

Actually, that’s a good point.
Cheika did load the books with youth, all of them disappointing.

 

[pissedoffihavetoregister]

I am really disappointed at them getting rid of the coach as he had a obvious shortcoming in the side with 2nd string second rowers that ended up, using kids mostly for much of the last game.

I remember a victorian afl side (can't remember who) over last few years who had a rough trot like the tahs, who did the analysis across multiple codes of whether to drop a coach after 1 year or not. They stated that the analysis said that the teams that hung onto the coach did the best.

I think the board should be shot for doing what they did.

 

[pnut]

I tried doing this last week and was shot down pretty quick but I will give it a go from last years Shute Shield and not selected for super rugby for NSW - excuse spelling

1. Jed Gillespie / Charlie Abel
2. Mahe Vailanu
3. Tim Metcher
4. Jack Margin
5. Nathan De Tuoit
6. Michael Icely
7. Christian Poidevan
8. Pat Sio
9. Harrison Goddard
10 . Rodney Iona /Angus Sinclaire
11. James Turner
12. Enoka Muliufi
13. Tautatalasi Tasi
14. Tyson Davis
15. Tim Clements

The team isn't going to win a super rugby title but I reckon they could give this weeks tahs a shot

5 of them had already signed professional contracts I believe. I ask because the criticism has been heavily towards recruitment so who do people have instead of current Tahs squad?

 

[Rebels3]

5 of them had already signed professional contracts I believe. I ask because the criticism has been heavily towards recruitment so who do people have instead of current Tahs squad?

That team gets skinned by 50 from the current Tahs side

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

5 of them had already signed professional contracts I believe. I ask because the criticism has been heavily towards recruitment so who do people have instead of current Tahs squad?

Metcher had been playing for Seattle in MLR. Poidevan and Goddard are currently in the US with LA. Sio has previously played professionally. None of them I think would be in contention. The only one I'd like to see given a shot is Icely.

 

[ShuteFan1]

5 of them had already signed professional contracts I believe. I ask because the criticism has been heavily towards recruitment so who do people have instead of current Tahs squad?

Sorry thought the question was based on Shute Shield 2020

I believe all the USA contracts were mid to late last year giving the tahs able time to sign them if they wish

 

[ShuteFan1]

That team gets skinned by 50 from the current Tahs side

Interested to hear where you think the gross mismatches are ?

Willing to concede Jake Gordon and Jack Maddocks being wallabies but where else are the tahs players far superior ?

 

[Slim 293]

Willing to concede Jake Gordon and Jack Maddocks being wallabies but where else are the tahs players far superior ?

Professional athletes?

Ah shit, it's still April 1 somewhere in the world.........

 

[Rebels3]

Interested to hear where you think the gross mismatches are ?

Willing to concede Jake Gordon and Jack Maddocks being wallabies but where else are the tahs players far superior ?

Upfront they get absolutely minced. Charlie Abel is a light year behind Bell, Vailanu is a good players but HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) comfortablely beats Metcher (who’s played Super Rugby and wasn’t at the standard).

The locks aren’t offering anything the current Tahs babies would offer, except less athleticism and less upside.

Dempsey looks like an animal when he plays SS, Tizzano is Super Rugby quality and Swinton has looked like he was best on field in his one international appearance so far. Knockout win in the back row

Gordon as you mentioned = winner

Harrison is clearly Super Rugby standard and has looked considerably more at home at Super Rugby level than Iona ever has in his appearances in the past.

Perese has shown he’s potentially international level with some standout Super Rugby games

Newsome tore up SS on his return last season with Foketi at Easts

Maddocks is a wallaby

It’s a landslide difference between each spot

There might be 1/2 people not already identified that could make the jump and look very good if given the chance but 95% of the gold gets successfully mined each year.

 

[KOB1987]

5 of them had already signed professional contracts I believe. I ask because the criticism has been heavily towards recruitment so who do people have instead of current Tahs squad?

It’s the NSW players signed with the other franchises that is the issue, there should be a concerted effort to keep our top home grown products at the Tahs, not go looking for the cheaper second stringers.

 

[ShuteFan1]

Upfront they get absolutely minced. Charlie Abel is a light year behind Bell, Vailanu is a good players but HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) comfortablely beats Metcher (who’s played Super Rugby and wasn’t at the standard).

The locks aren’t offering anything the current Tahs babies would offer, except less athleticism and less upside.

Dempsey looks like an animal when he plays SS, Tizzano is Super Rugby quality and Swinton has looked like he was best on field in his one international appearance so far. Knockout win in the back row

Gordon as you mentioned = winner

Harrison is clearly Super Rugby standard and has looked considerably more at home at Super Rugby level than Iona ever has in his appearances in the past.

Perese has shown he’s potentially international level with some standout Super Rugby games

Newsome tore up SS on his return last season with Foketi at Easts

Maddocks is a wallaby

It’s a landslide difference between each spot

There might be 1/2 people not already identified that could make the jump and look very good if given the chance but 95% of the gold gets successfully mined each year.

Ok allow me a different perspective - and please bare in mind we were looking at this weeks tahs team in a one off game with both teams have equal preparation

Front Row
Bell Poreki HJ
VS
Gillespie Vailanu Metcher
Im suggesting the SS front row holds here at scrum time which is there primary job . Gillespie and Metcher both grizzled veterans who have scrummed against better players than both Bell and HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)- just think about some of the great Sydney Uni front rows of last 6- 8 years. Tahs front rows better runners granted but in the tight stuff?? Jury out . We agree hookers rule each other out
Even

Jeremy Williams and Max Douglas
Vs
Jack Margin and Nathan Du Tuit
Not exactly a battle for the ages this one . But at least I can say Margin and Du Tuiot have proven they can handle it against men . Douglas and Williams - picked on potential.
Im giving SS a narrow victory in a poor fight

Sinclaire Harris Tizzano
Vs
Icely Sio Poidevan
Im taking Icely - bigger stronger faster , Sincalire crafty and a work horse. Both proven at Shute at least.
Sio everyday . Harris IF he lives up to potential will be miles better but right now the kid has done nothing against men. As someone mentioned Sio has played professionally , won premierships and at 28 not over the hill . Harris better athlete yep but show me a video of Sio going backwards in a collision
Tizzano - wins hands down .
SS victory

Gordon Vs Goddard
Gordon wins . But not as lop sided as one thinks .

Harrison Vs Iona
Unpopular opinion . Harrison is over rated . Plays like he is still in the all conquering Randwick colts team. Only thing we have seen from him is ball running and brilliant left boot. Isn't a 10s primary job to organise the team and facilitate the players around him ? Does he make players around him better ? ( counter argument is the players around him suck - well pick others ) also has a 3/9 Super Rugby record , factor in NRC he is I believe 3/12 wins at senior rugby .
Yes Iona played and failed at franchises but is there just a slight possibility that he has matured and gotten better with experience ? Certainly looked so last year and the brumbies saw enough to keep him around .
Even

Foketi and Periese
Vs
Muliufi and Tasi
Great battle . Power ball runners .
Interesting to note Foketi hasn't exactly dominated Muliufi at Shute Shield level and his team has twice lost to Muliufi team in finals game ( yes millions of other factors ) . Lets call even .
Tasi was actually offered Tahs contract by Gibson and then Gibson was sacked thus lost his deal . But Im willing to concede Periese here as bloke is bloody powerful.
Tahs slightly

Newsome Ramm Maddocks
Vs
Turner Davis Clements
Il give Tahs the edge here .
However Newsome is a good Shute Shield player - send me the videos of him tearing up Shute Shield please! And let me know his strengths as a player.
Ramm completely unproven everywhere . Couple of good runs in 2020 .
Maddocks - depends which Maddocks turns up . Wallaby one week , reserve grader the next
The SS guys are ehhh. Turner can certainly score a try how would he go in a good team?, Davis is solid yet unspectacular , Clements been best fullback in SS last 2 years , size might hold him back.

Iv wasted everyones time with that and my own .
However to suggest that this Fridays nights tahs team minces the club rugby battlers ....

 

[TSR]

It’s an interesting argument Shutefan1 - and personally the enjoy reading a different perspective like the one you put up.

I have no knowledge of the players you are putting up from Shute Shield - so I am not in a position to question you on the direct comparisons. And I do think some licence should be allowed to re-frame the argument a bit. From your comments, I assume your argument is not so much ‘could these players outplay the current Waratahs tomorrow’ so much as ‘if you took these Shute Shield players and put them into the professional environment that the Tahs players are being afforded, would you get a better outcome.’ If that is your argument then it is quite subjective/theoretical one, but I’m sure there is some merit to it. But I would make a couple of counter points -
- the very nature of squad management is that you have to back a particular horse, and you generally have to do it young. Sometimes you’ll get it right, sometimes wrong. No matter how well a team does there will always be a few that slips through the net. So, to me, what you are rallying against is not the core problem. Swapping out 2-3 players isn’t really going to make a significant difference. The two big issues relevant to your point are the poor long term squad management and the poor connection between the Tahs & Shute Shield. One of the poor consequences of this IMO, was the failure to embrace NRC for what it was - a chance to bridge the gap between the premier club comps in Australia and professional rugby. I’m somewhat surprised at your indifference to NRC given the opportunity that it provide for so many good players, in particular the late bloomers, to press their case. Regardless of opinions, no one in Australian rugby has a vested interest in holding back the best talent (sorry - I know you want to leave the NRC argument behind, but I just find it extremely ironic in this case)
- I think your opening comparison between the front rows underlines the biggest flaw in your overall argument. The default that scrumming ability outranks everything else for a front rower hasn’t been true in international rugby for at least 20 yrs. People love the meat and potatoes analogy - but honestly it’s horseshit. I’m not saying scrumming isn’t important - it is a vital core skill, but there is so much more to the modern front rower and they can’t get away with being great at the scrums but sub standard elsewhere. Otherwise every team would have a 5 foot tall power lifter as their tight head prop. Ala'alatoa is a great example of this. Allan is generally a very sound scrummager. But what makes him so good is all the detail in the rest of his work. He is a strong defender, good ball runner, good at the breakdown, very strong in the maul and has an excellent work rate. HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) & Bell have some way to go, but they offer very strong all round games with plenty of upside. Sure, in an ideal world they’d be learning their trade behind other guys, but only if those other guys are good all round players.
With regards to your locks - I note your comments around the fact that Margin & Du Toit have proved they can handle it against men. And I get that argument - but I am very wary of it. But if you go down that path then so too have Wykes and Whetton. What they can’t do is dominate other men. Or even achieve parity in most cases. The Tahs don’t need a couple of locks who can go out there and take their beatings like a man, they need a couple of blokes who will push through and provide stability and genuine grunt. So unless Margin & Du Toit offer such an upgrade then I am reminded of the mantra of Wayne Bennett - when faced with a choice of two players of relatively similiar quality, pick the younger one every time.

I’m not going to go through the rest of your squad. But when I read it, it all seems very subjective and selective. Pat Sio might not get driven back in many tackles, but is his work rate/accuracy anywhere near super rugby level. Again, I’m not saying our pathways systems have always got it right - quite clearly that isn’t the case. But ignoring why guys like Sio, Metcher & (so far) Goddard have not kicked on is a touch naive IMO.

Anyway, this post is long enough. I guess I just feel there is an element of idealism in your post which ignores some of the realities of the gap between club rugby and the pros. But that is not to say there is no foundation to it and I do like hearing the different views on players you bring here.

 

[TSR]

I will throw the question up - how much do the Tahs wish they still had Rob Simmons. Not physically imposing by any stretch - but every part of his game would bring improvement to the current Tahs team.

Edit: although to suggest any one player would make a material difference to the Tahs would be extremely naive.

 

[dru]

I will throw the question up - how much do the Tahs wish they still had Rob Simmons. Not physically imposing by any stretch - but every part of his game would bring improvement to the current Tahs team.

Edit: although to suggest any one player would make a material difference to the Tahs would be extremely naive.

Ditto Hunt.

 

[formerflanker]

Iv wasted everyones time with that and my own .
However to suggest that this Fridays nights tahs team minces the club rugby battlers ..

Not a waste of time at all.
Readers can either scroll by or get engaged with your interesting analysis.

 

[Drew]

Another example of Tahs management ineptitude. Played last week at Homebush to empty stands a week before the Easter Show. players might come to the Shute Shield, et al, to have a go at making it, but a lot of the players start playing in rural areas, think HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes), Hanigan, Newsome to name just a few. Every article about any on them always mentions Cowra, Coonamble and Inverell. You’d think they might tie in that connection with the people coming to the big smoke for the show. Also, the NRL and NBL are doing Show entry, game ticket deals.

 

[Derpus]

I will throw the question up - how much do the Tahs wish they still had Rob Simmons. Not physically imposing by any stretch - but every part of his game would bring improvement to the current Tahs team.

Edit: although to suggest any one player would make a material difference to the Tahs would be extremely naive.

Hunt, Simmons and Hooper would have completely transformed this team IMO.