Waratahs 2018

[Inside Shoulder]

I think the fact he was captain of the Australian Schoolboys team is more pertinent than him being a Randwick colts player.

Not a strong predictor and part of the problem with our 18-21 structure

 

[fatprop]

Not a strong predictor and part of the problem with our 18-21 structure

Until we find something better, it is the best we have

 

[Derpus]

Foley and Beale will be unlikely to be around after the next RWC.

Europe?

 

[Derpus]

I haven't seen enough of the kid to make a judgement.
school kids such as Beale and Hooper stood out as being a grade above their cohort. they succeeded.
The Horwitzs & the Deegans,who were just deemed the best of their age by schoolboy selectors,were not so successful.
Is he the former or the latter?

Beale took a while to adjust to super rugby and has always been plagued by inconsistency at test level fluctuating from brilliant to painful. He was deemed the next coming.
I think Horwitz improved a lot last season and was one of our better players (among a bad bunch). We shouldn't have let him go
These kids need to be given time and plenty of it.
Hooper is the exception that proves the rule. He is a freak.

 

[fatprop]

Europe?

I expect somewhere that can pay them the extraordinary money they deserve, both will be in there 30s and looking for a superannuation contract

 

[I like to watch]

Beale took a while to adjust to super rugby and has always been plagued by inconsistency at test level fluctuating from brilliant to painful. He was deemed the next coming.
I think Horwitz improved a lot last season and was one of our better players (among a bad bunch). We shouldn't have let him go
These kids need to be given time and plenty of it.
Hooper is the exception that proves the rule. He is a freak.

Beale was starting in his 1st year with the Tahs.
Horwitz never made the match day squad in his first 3 years.
If there is no expectation of using them this season, they shouldn't sign them this season.IMO

 

[Silverado]

Beale was starting in his 1st year with the Tahs.
Horwitz never made the match day squad in his first 3 years.
If there is no expectation of using them this season, they shouldn't sign them this season.IMO

The young blokes are signed on development contracts and paid a fraction of full Super contract. The idea is to sign them now and develop them for the near future, otherwise they'd bugger of to another franchise, OS or NRL


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[I like to watch]

What's you're definition of a fraction?
My understanding, is that they are still full time contracts.
We seem to have a better record with players that are returning from their first contract out of School, than the player we sign straight out of school.

 

[Braveheart81]

What's you're definition of a fraction?
My understanding, is that they are still full time contracts.
We seem to have a better record with players that are returning from their first contract out of School, than the player we sign straight out of school.

A substantial part is around developing that player as well. I don't think any sport would advocate that the best way for an 18 year old to realise their full potential was to play/train part time for a few years as as an amateur or semi-professional.

 

[Silverado]

Yes they are full time, but there are different tiers of contracts. I don't know exact current figures, but a few years ago a Supplementary Squad contract was about $700 per week EPS contract a bit over $50K and full contract minimum in the mid $80K. They've recently had a pay rise, but the proportions won't have changed.


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[I like to watch]

A substantial part is around developing that player as well. I don't think any sport would advocate that the best way for an 18 year old to realise their full potential was to play/train part time for a few years as as an amateur or semi-professional.

That's not supported by history.
Schoolboy rockstars have a poor track history at the Tahs.

 

[Braveheart81]

Is it a realistic alternative to not sign any young players and hope that they get developed better by other teams and want to come back any play for you at a later point in time?

Is it just a reality that plenty of star 18 year olds don't go on and become superstars but a reasonable number do that it is a necessity to be part of that system?

Would it be in Australian rugby's interest to only offer a couple of elite teenagers a professional opportunity each year and hope the rest either get developed overseas or somehow make it there as a semi professional or amateur?

 

[Braveheart81]

There have been plenty of 18 and 19 year olds who haven't gone on to great heights at the Tahs, but there have also been those like Kurtley Beale, Phil Waugh, Rob Horne, Lachie Turner, David Lyons who were signed before they were 20 and gone on to have very strong careers.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Possibly off-topic but I don't imagine there'll be a match thread, so:

Highlanders v Waratahs

Queenstown Recreation Ground

Friday, 6pm

Highlanders: Ben Smith (co-capt), Josh Timu, Terrence Hepetema, Tei Walden, Tevita Nabura, Josh Ioane, Josh Renton, Adam Knight, Dillon Hunt, Shannon Frizell, Josh Dickson, Pari Pari Parkinson, Tyrel Lomax, Greg Pleasants-Tate, Aki Seiuli. Reserves: Ash Dixon, Guy Millar, Kalolo Tuiloma, Siate Tokolahi, Jackson Hemopo, Kayne Hammington, Fletcher Smith, Ryan Tongia, Flynn Thomas, Daniel Lienert-Brown, Tom Franklin, Dan Pryor, Marino Mikaele Tu'u, Rob Thompson, Matt Faddes, Tevita Li, Josh McKay.

Pretty sure BSmith is officially still on sabbatical so he's obviously keen to get back into it. 17-man bench, is Cheika guest coach or something?

 

[I like to watch]

It's a reality that resources are finite.
It's a reality that the Tahs have a poor record in picking winners from School.
There are no black and whites.
I think there is a huge difference between judged the best of the crop by amateur selectors, and being recognised as being a standard higher than the cohort.
The latter are the ones most likely to be ready early,by all means sign them.
The others,unfortunately don't warrant a full time contract, with the money available at this time.
Let's remember that it's not good enough to be the best in your age group, you need to be better than 3 or 4 crops before and after you.

 

[Braveheart81]

It's a reality that resources are finite.
It's a reality that the Tahs have a poor record in picking winners from School.
There are no black and whites.
I think there is a huge difference between judged the best of the crop by amateur selectors, and being recognised as being a standard higher than the cohort.
The latter are the ones most likely to be ready early,by all means sign them.
The others,unfortunately don't warrant a full time contract, with the money available at this time.
Let's remember that it's not good enough to be the best in your age group, you need to be better than 3 or 4 crops before and after you.

Of course you need to be better than 3 or 4 crops before or after you. I don't think it's always entirely obvious who those players will be (outside of people like Beale, Giteau, George Smith etc.). It's not like the whole schoolboys or under 20s team get offered contracts. A small fraction of them do. Is the strike rate on those players any worse than the fringe players they pick who are several years older? I'm not sure it is. I don't think this is an area a team can just absolve themselves of being involved in. A handful of contracts are always going to go to really young players you think have immense talent that will benefit you in the future by developing it. The same situation exists in every sport the world over.

 

[southsider]

Of course you need to be better than 3 or 4 crops before or after you. I don't think it's always entirely obvious who those players will be (outside of people like Beale, Giteau, George Smith etc.). It's not like the whole schoolboys or under 20s team get offered contracts. A small fraction of them do. Is the strike rate on those players any worse than the fringe players they pick who are several years older? I'm not sure it is. I don't think this is an area a team can just absolve themselves of being involved in. A handful of contracts are always going to go to really young players you think have immense talent that will benefit you in the future by developing it. The same situation exists in every sport the world over.

I think union needs to also not be so set on selecting just aussie schoolboy players. If you look at all the super teams, unless the guy has come via league it’s pretty rare that they weren’t in the Aussie schoolboys or at least the state team. This either means that the ARU/super teams have immaculate player ID (yea right) or they’re just being lazy and going with a safer bet

Whereas you look at league it’s a lot more common for the best to not have represented Australia at schoolboy level, or even anything past the standard local rep team

 

[Braveheart81]

I think union needs to also not be so set on selecting just aussie schoolboy players. If you look at all the super teams, unless the guy has come via league it’s pretty rare that they weren’t in the Aussie schoolboys or at least the state team. This either means that the ARU/super teams have immaculate player ID (yea right) or they’re just being lazy and going with a safer bet

Whereas you look at league it’s a lot more common for the best to not have represented Australia at schoolboy level, or even anything past the standard local rep team

Is a sizable part of it that it is a pretty small pool of players? Apart from a few late bloomers not many really go totally under the radar. Of those players who weren't that good when they were 18-21 but later became a very strong professional player, firstly how many of them are there, and secondly, who could have predicted it to give them a contract earlier and improve their development in a professional environment?

 

[I like to watch]

Of course you need to be better than 3 or 4 crops before or after you. I don't think it's always entirely obvious who those players will be (outside of people like Beale, Giteau, George Smith etc.). It's not like the whole schoolboys or under 20s team get offered contracts. A small fraction of them do. Is the strike rate on those players any worse than the fringe players they pick who are several years older? I'm not sure it is. I don't think this is an area a team can just absolve themselves of being involved in. A handful of contracts are always going to go to really young players you think have immense talent that will benefit you in the future by developing it. The same situation exists in every sport the world over.

That's pretty much my point.
If it's not entirely obvious,don't give them a full time contract.Seems to me they have an unofficial quota, and the decision is about which is the best option.
Let them develop in colts, just like most of the current Tahs did, when an exceptional kid comes along, sure, spend the cash.
Rather than paying a kid for 3 years before he's ready to actually be in the match day squad, the code would benefit more paying a DO to help out in the western suburbs,

 

[Braveheart81]

So you're advocating for smaller squad sizes?

Not signing a player on an EPS or supplementary contract and instead spending the money on a development officer doesn't really seem like the applicable trade off.