Waratahs 2018

[wamberal]

No, they wouldn’t..
Looking like Thor means nothing If you lack the necessary attributes developed through skills sessions, opposed training and match time..that’s why we lag behind the buggers, not because they spend months in the gym more then the aussies.

Who said anything about looking like Thor? Are you seriously suggesting that New Zealand players do not do any gym work?


According to an article by Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald, 9th September (*The weight evolution of the All Blacks: supersize only"), Sam Cane was 101 kgs in 2012, he is now 109 kgs. Ardea Savea was 95 kgs when he first toured as an All Black, and he was told he needed to get up to 106. The whole tenor of the article is to do with a managed, balanced, increase in size.

I do remember reading some years ago, cannot remember who it was, one of their better locks, he stopped playing for a couple of months, just to get his weight up by 3 or 4 kgs.


The ohly way to bulk up with muscle is to stop playing and start humping iron.

 

[TOCC]

Who said anything about looking like Thor? Are you seriously suggesting that New Zealand players do not do any gym work?


According to an article by Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald, 9th September (*The weight evolution of the All Blacks: supersize only"), Sam Cane was 101 kgs in 2012, he is now 109 kgs. Ardea Savea was 95 kgs when he first toured as an All Black, and he was told he needed to get up to 106.

I do remember reading some years ago, cannot remember who it was, one of their better locks, he stopped playing for a couple of months, just to get his weight up by 3 or 4 kgs.


The ohly way to bulk up with muscle is to stop playing and start humping iron.

Nup,never suggested that, I refuted your suggestion that Hanigan should just spend the next 3 months in the gym, and that this gym time is the difference between Australian and New Zealand players, when it's clearly a skills gap first, S&C gap second.

Australia's rugby development program at all level has for far too long placed too much emphasis on time in the gym and this concept of putting on size, rather then actual conditioning, functional strength and skills. Its a cultural issue engrained at all levels, with younger kids getting caught up in the aesthetics of training rather then the functional strength.

Hanigan doesn't lack size, his application of what size he does have and his technique in making contact is where he loses. Same goes for a significant number of other Australian forwards, poor technique and lack of controlled aggression are where they lose out against teams like New Zealand.

It's ironic you mention Cane and Savea, because both those players would appear to play at a heavier weight then Hanigan despite weighing less, and thats because their individual technique and application of force is better then Hannigans.

Yes gym time seres its purpose, but it has to be the right kind of training, in the past few years it would appear as though most Australian teams have missed the mark on this part.

 

[wamberal]

So even when I'm right, I'm wrong, eh? Stink stink.

 

[TOCC]

McCalman is a prime example - he has the skills but has failed to develop the strength and power to make him a first-choice Wallaby.

I disagree there actually, McCalman is an example of having the strength and power but lacking the mental application, mindset or understanding of how to use it effectively and consistently. McCalman returned from injury bigger and stronger then ever, but he still went missing the same as he has in years gone by.

 

[TOCC]

So even when I'm right, I'm wrong, eh? Stink stink.

for the sake of the forum and discussing the topic at hand, do you actually disagree with something I said?
I took the time to reply to you, you could at least do the same in return rather then responses like this.

 

[Hawko]

Hanigan is tall and skinny. He just doesn't have the power to play to his height. He can either get it over the next two years, litttle by little, or he can take some time off to develop it now and then learn to apply it over the next two years. My vote goes to the latter rather than the former.

 

[TOCC]

Tall and skinny... yet he is at similar weight if not heavier then the likes of the All Blacks and England backrows who beat the Wallabies this year...

They played more physical then the Wallabies, why? Because they utilise their weight and strength in contact more effectively then the Wallaby forwards do.

He could put on 5kg, would it solve the issues? No not In my opinion, for everything he gains he loses mobility and speed, I think some of the explosiveness that he lacks could be achieved through better conditioning programs whilst maintaining a similar weight.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Tahs are struggling in losing fan support by the truckload - if they don't jettison Gibson soon they could lose even more....called today about Tahs memberships selling fast...who are they kidding....

While they persist with Gibson and have Davis on board they can go fly kites.....

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Tall and skinny. yet he is at similar weight if not heavier then the likes of the All Blacks and England backrows who beat the Wallabies this year.

They played more physical then the Wallabies, why? Because they utilise their weight and strength in contact more effectively then the Wallaby forwards do.

He could put on 5kg, would it solve the issues? No not In my opinion, for everything he gains he loses mobility and speed, I think some of the explosiveness that he lacks could be achieved through better conditioning programs whilst maintaining a similar weight.

Look we are debating whether Hanigan can be wallaby standard....which is about part mental application and dedication and part physical skills and attributes...easier sometimes if you have the latter than the former is a given.... What I would like to see is the young man who is Hanigan given credit for his mental application and dedication....but is he physically and skilled enough to be wallaby - not so sure - but that is ok imo for debate as wallaby level is of course elite pinnacle level - but not hopefully debating through lack of effort of application by the player....so hence sometimes I find not criticism of Hanigan a little too personal against the player in other threads who imo deserves more respect for at least his mental side and application...just imo.... But to note I think postings on Hanigan here been more respectful of that so no issue here on these threads....

 

[Gnostic]

Tall and skinny. yet he is at similar weight if not heavier then the likes of the All Blacks and England backrows who beat the Wallabies this year.

They played more physical then the Wallabies, why? Because they utilise their weight and strength in contact more effectively then the Wallaby forwards do.

He could put on 5kg, would it solve the issues? No not In my opinion, for everything he gains he loses mobility and speed, I think some of the explosiveness that he lacks could be achieved through better conditioning programs whilst maintaining a similar weight.

To many seem to have forgotten the year of the massive Tahs side where Foley had them get big to apparently be more powerful. Amazing they had an even worse year even by the Foley stats than usual. Two of the most powerful defenders I can think of Lima and Motu'u are not exceptionally big, what they have is exceptional technique and long term training. At the ruck perhaps the hardest cleanout operator Australia has produced was about Hanigan's size if not skinnier in Matt Cockbain. Yet plenty of massive units have come and gone yet showed little impact for all their size because of rubbish technique including a couple of props well over 120Kg and barely 6'1" or so who should have been hard to move but were often blown off the ball by backs.

 

[Hawko]

Look we are debating whether Hanigan can be wallaby standard..which is about part mental application and dedication and part physical skills and attributes.easier sometimes if you have the latter than the former is a given.. What I would like to see is the young man who is Hanigan given credit for his mental application and dedication..but is he physically and skilled enough to be wallaby - not so sure - but that is ok imo for debate as wallaby level is of course elite pinnacle level - but not hopefully debating through lack of effort of application by the player..so hence sometimes I find not criticism of Hanigan a little too personal against the player in other threads who imo deserves more respect for at least his mental side and application.just imo.. But to note I think postings on Hanigan here been more respectful of that so no issue here on these threads..

Hanigan is barely out of the U-20's. He is potentially a 50+ game Wallaby, if he can increase his abilities at the breakdown and in carrying. Credit to the bloke for getting so many tests so far. I just think he needs to grow and develop and we'll be all raving about him.

 

[Sully]

Actually thought we missed him against Scotland.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

 

[Derpus]

Hanigan doesn't lack size, his application of what size he does have and his technique in making contact is where he loses. Same goes for a significant number of other Australian forwards, poor technique and lack of controlled aggression are where they lose out against teams like New Zealand.

It's ironic you mention Cane and Savea, because both those players would appear to play at a heavier weight then Hanigan despite weighing less, and thats because their individual technique and application of force is better then Hannigans.

I agree, Hanigan's technique is all over the shop, but packing on an extra 5-10kgs will certainly help him shift bodies about, despite his technique. Case in point: every islander ever.

 

[Derpus]

Tall and skinny. yet he is at similar weight if not heavier then the likes of the All Blacks and England backrows who beat the Wallabies this year.

They played more physical then the Wallabies, why? Because they utilise their weight and strength in contact more effectively then the Wallaby forwards do.

He could put on 5kg, would it solve the issues? No not In my opinion, for everything he gains he loses mobility and speed, I think some of the explosiveness that he lacks could be achieved through better conditioning programs whilst maintaining a similar weight.

Do the English actually play more physical though? or is this just a stereotype from times past. We didn't lose against the Engish because we got outmuscled. Actually, we lost because of just about everything else.

Out inability to get over the gain-line was due to their 'line speed' (read constantly offside defense).

 

[fatprop]

I agree, Hanigan's technique is all over the shop, but packing on an extra 5-10kgs will certainly help him shift bodies about, despite his technique. Case in point: every islander ever.

I think it is a technique issue more than a weight thing, improving his accuracy and technique would be prudent

 

[Braveheart81]

The two biggest technique issues for Hanigan in my opinion are:

Ball carrying: his body height is way too high. Rob Simmons has always had a similar problem too.

Breakdown: he was too often trying to support the ball carrier by helping them drive through the tackle. This is a pretty low percentage play particularly in the pod type structure where there aren't a lot of bodies in any one place to do the cleanout.

If the ball carrier gets tackled he's far too close to make the cleanout because he can't put on an effective hit and misses his cleanout resulting in a turnover.

Compare this to Hooper who is excellent at being a few metres behind and has the run up to put on a strong hit to cleanout pretty much anyone and secure the breakdown.

I think the breakdown issue is easier to correct than the ball carrying one. I think it's really hard to change someone's running style. Players who run too upright who then try to run lower to the ground often end up not having the balance and go the ground too easily.

 

[Bandar]

The new jumpers have been released - usually a fan of the Canterbury gear but the collar on them is just terrible...
https://www.canterburynz.com.au/waratahs-t49

 

[Derpus]

I think you could live with a workhorse 6 who could clean-out effectively but can't carry well. Particularly if Simmo isn't in the same pack. Even more so if Valetini/Naisarani are weighing in at 8.

He absolutely, definitely needs to learn to clean out though.

 

[fatprop]

The new jumpers have been released - usually a fan of the Canterbury gear but the collar on them is just terrible.
https://www.canterburynz.com.au/waratahs-t49

The collar does have that sort of real estate agent look about it

 

[fatprop]

There are quite a few nice sale items on the Canterbury website, just got a Tahs Hoodie for $30 delivered