Waratahs 2016

[Micheal]

The Waratahs have re-signed Jed Holloway for three years, and Matt Sandell and Andrew Kellaway for two years.

Great about Kellaway and Holloway, not too stoked about Sandell.

The kid has talent, sure, but at high 90/low 100 kgs he'd be light for a blindside flanker.

Not sure he's our best option at prop (or even hooker if he transitions) for the next three years. Surely there are better options out in club land.

 

[Braveheart81]

Great about Kellaway and Holloway, not too stoked about Sandell.

The kid has talent, sure, but at high 90/low 100 kgs he'd be light for a blindside flanker.

Not sure he's our best option at prop (or even hooker if he transitions) for the next three years. Surely there are better options out in club land.

There's no doubt he needs to bulk up but presumably there is the expectation that it is happening and will continue. He's listed at 102kg right now and surely has to get to 110kg before he is viable.

He's a talented player with good technique from what I've seen but is definitely a work in progress.

Who knows whether or not Benn Robinson plays another season and Jeremy Tilse should finish up with the Tahs this year. The prop recruitment for 2017 needs to be players who are ready to play Super Rugby right now.

I don't think there is any issue working to develop a young player who should have a good future if he can get to the requisite size and maintain his mobility.

I think Tom Robertson, Matt Sandell and Cameron Orr put the Tahs in a better position going forward with props than we have been lately. It's just a matter of filling in the gaps until they are all ready. Tom Robertson looks like he is our best THP already so his development is certainly way ahead of schedule.

 

[I like to watch]

Pay him once he is big enough to compete, if he hadn't lost his mobility.
Who is going to poach a 100kg prop?

 

[Quick Hands]

Who is going to poach a 100kg prop?

You'd be surprised. It's an area where overseas clubs/provinces have demonstrated far more foresight and a far better ability to identify talent in the front row.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...s/news-story/c257aa5a703b2b749219d40e60dd5f98

 

[Quick Hands]

Great about Kellaway and Holloway, not too stoked about Sandell.

The kid has talent, sure, but at high 90/low 100 kgs he'd be light for a blindside flanker.

Not sure he's our best option at prop (or even hooker if he transitions) for the next three years. Surely there are better options out in club land.

There are good prospects in club land. Sandell is probably one, but probably needs more time. Rory O'Connor at the Rats spent some time in the northern winter at Munster learning the arts of front row play.

 

[Braveheart81]

Pay him once he is big enough to compete, if he hadn't lost his mobility.
Who is going to poach a 100kg prop?

Surely as part of your overall squad, some positions will be dedicated to developing players for the future.
Surely they consider that he has potential and the way to realise that is by having him as part of their overall squad so they can have him doing the training and conditioning that they think will get him there.

 

[barbarian]

Jeez for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over Mike Allaalaatoa, the one question that has yet to be actually answered is - is he even any good?

He may well be, but hasn't proved anything yet IMO. His performances off the bench for the Crusaders have been at best satisfactory.

Meanwhile, the Tahs have unearthed a genuine TH prospect in Tom Robertson.

I'm not a huge fan of the Ta'avao signing, sure, but all of this angst over Mike A is a bit much for me. He had 3 years at the Tahs and never got on the park.

He could be sensational. But right now I'd rather have Robertson.
.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think Mike Ala'alatoa's stocks are being inflated by how good his younger brother is.

Allan A looks like a genuine talent and someone we should be sorry we missed out on.

Tom Robertson at this point looks like the real deal. He has come into the side as a 21 year old and already looks like our best THP.

 

[RugbyReg]

The Waratahs have re-signed Jed Holloway for three years, and Matt Sandell and Andrew Kellaway for two years.

I thought Jed was signed to 2017. Does that mean he's there until 2020?

 

[Micheal]

The only worry is that we might not be able to recruit Super Rugby ready props by next year, and if we've learnt anything from this year, we definitely need them.

I like the look of Rory O'Connor, he was U20s in 2014 was he not? He's got a bit of mongrel about him, and not unlike Piggy Robertson, a bit of speed / mobility as well.

People also like to mention Sandell's mobility, but as we mentioned, he needs to gain ~10kg to even be viable, ~20kg to be competitive. Go to your local gym and pick up a 20kg plate. Look at it and consider not only its size, but the density of it and how heavy it actually is.

Sandell has to add the equivalent of that across his entire body. If he does it properly, it'll take a long time. Hell, it might not even be possible.

If he does it quickly, he'll have to sacrifice many of the qualities that make him the player he is.

It's not a position you want your players to be in.

 

[Jagman]

What doesn't look good is how bad Sydney Uni's scrum is with players like Tilse, and Sandell.

 

[Braveheart81]

I thought Jed was signed to 2017. Does that mean he's there until 2020?

Not sure. I can't find anything to confirm the previous contract (although I haven't really looked very hard).

The only worry is that we might not be able to recruit Super Rugby ready props by next year, and if we've learnt anything from this year, we definitely need them.

I like the look of Rory O'Connor, he was U20s in 2014 was he not? He's got a bit of mongrel about him, and not unlike Piggy Robertson, a bit of speed / mobility as well.

I don't see how Sandell is recruited instead of Super Rugby ready props for 2017 (and who knows, he might be).

The Waratahs press release now lists Sandell as being 107kg. As someone who was a really lean prop it should be easier for him to put on bulk effectively. It's not like he was pudgy and still underweight.

I know you take the weight listings with a grain of salt but Rory O'Connor is listed as being 105kg on the Rays website.

For 2017, the Waratahs need to ensure they have five Super Rugby ready props out of the positions currently filled by Tom Robertson, Angus Ta'avao, Benn Robinson, Paddy Ryan and Jeremy Tilse.

Robertson and Ta'avao will be there in 2017 and Robinson, Ryan and Tilse are all off contract. Of those three I'd guess Tilse will be the only player they move on (unless Benn Robinson retires) and certainly those players need to be good to go in the matchday side.

Paddy Ryan produced his best scrummaging performance of the year against the Brumbies and clearly that needs to continue to improve. I'd assume they'll re-sign him.

 

[I like to watch]

Surely as part of your overall squad, some positions will be dedicated to developing players for the future.
Surely they consider that he has potential and the way to realise that is by having him as part of their overall squad so they can have him doing the training and conditioning that they think will get him there.

There are contracts and there are contracts.
They have a few on part time contracts, which allow them to both secure and develop the players.
IMO the main squad for real $$, means you should be good to go now.
He is not.

 

[Braveheart81]

There are contracts and there are contracts.
They have a few on part time contracts, which allow them to both secure and develop the players.
IMO the main squad for real $$, means you should be good to go now.
He is not.

He's on an EPS contract in 2016 and presumably they think he will be good to go in 2017.

You can look at any squad in the competition and there will always be a few in the main squad who are essentially development players that the club is investing in because they think they are going to be valuable in the future.

Would you really be filling those last few spots in your squad with older players who might be better if you need them to play tomorrow but you don't think have a bright future or a higher ceiling that can be reached in the next year or two?

 

[Lee Grant]

I've said a dozen times that Sandell always looked too light to be a THP senior player and was amazed when Uni played him at THP in first grade, and astonished this year that he was named on the bench against the Brumbies in Canberra. Wisely, they did not use him.

I keep saying that this lad will be a handy hooker and that he threw to the lineout sometimes at school for Joeys, though playing prop.

I mentioned this to somebody with a prominent position in the Tahs outfit, at training pre-season, and he said something like: "Funny you should mention that" - but there seems to be no movement in that regard; so they re-signed him ostensibly as a THP prop.

The news about the other two is heartening. I always thought Robertson was going to make his mark as a pro THP but not this year as a 21-year-old. His other attribute of being a handy line breaker in the tight, shown recently, was less surprising: he was always hard to stop as a young bloke.

I have noticed the remarkably quick LHP Rory O'Connor around the park more than as a scrummager. The other LHP mentioned, Cameron Orr, is also a top prospect: he certainly has the legs for it.

Not too much more need be said about Holloway: he is showing the promise that everybody and his dog has mentioned for a long time, and to sign him up for three more years is a coup.

His ball running is starting to look like that of a young Kieran Read and whilst his picking up of crap ball from the back of the scrum is not in the McCalman class, he is alas getting a lot of practice in that element of the game.
.

 

[I like to watch]

Not sure. I can't find anything to confirm the previous contract (although I haven't really looked very hard).




I don't see how Sandell is recruited instead of Super Rugby ready props for 2017 (and who knows, he might be).

The Waratahs press release now lists Sandell as being 107kg. As someone who was a really lean prop it should be easier for him to put on bulk effectively. It's not like he was pudgy and still underweight.

I know you take the weight listings with a grain of salt but Rory O'Connor is listed as being 105kg on the Rays website.

For 2017, the Waratahs need to ensure they have five Super Rugby ready props out of the positions currently filled by Tom Robertson, Angus Ta'avao, Benn Robinson, Paddy Ryan and Jeremy Tilse.

Robertson and Ta'avao will be there in 2017 and Robinson, Ryan and Tilse are all off contract. Of those three I'd guess Tilse will be the only player they move on (unless Benn Robinson retires) and certainly those players need to be good to go in the matchday side.

Paddy Ryan produced his best scrummaging performance of the year against the Brumbies and clearly that needs to continue to improve. I'd assume they'll re-sign him.

This is my problem, they get signed early on potential, then they stay on for 10 years because the perception is they are more advanced than any SS prop.
Tilse is in his10?th year as a pro.
I really don't think many SS clubs would pick up the ph if he was available.
Paddy Ryan as well,to a lesser degree.
Put 20 SS props in a pro program,let Tilse & Paddy compete against them on the back of an amateur program, and they would be flogged.

Sandell on an EPS is a good option.
But as we know, the last 5-6 signings are always the most contentious.

 

[Quick Hands]

Jeez for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over Mike Allaalaatoa, the one question that has yet to be actually answered is - is he even any good?

He may well be, but hasn't proved anything yet IMO. His performances off the bench for the Crusaders have been at best satisfactory.

Meanwhile, the Tahs have unearthed a genuine TH prospect in Tom Robertson.

I'm not a huge fan of the Ta'avao signing, sure, but all of this angst over Mike A is a bit much for me. He had 3 years at the Tahs and never got on the park.

He could be sensational. But right now I'd rather have Robertson.
.

Well, he's just turned 24, which for props is nowhere near maturity.

The Crusaders seem to think he's got something going for him.

Will he be the world's best prop, time will tell, but I wouldn't be basing my evaluation on how he performed as a 21-23 year old that's for sure.

Investment in props is long term and Tom Robertson looks very good - let's hope he develops into a world class prop for the Waratahs and Wallabies.

That doesn't make the Michael Ala'atoa release the right decision though.

 

[wamberal]

Tilse in particular, but also Ryan from time to time, have been flogged more than a few times by a team close to my heart, often by a front row with no "stars" in it.

 

[Braveheart81]

This is my problem, they get signed early on potential, then they stay on for 10 years because the perception is they are more advanced than any SS prop.
Tilse is in his10?th year as a pro.
I really don't think many SS clubs would pick up the ph if he was available.
Paddy Ryan as well,to a lesser degree.
Put 20 SS props in a pro program,let Tilse & Paddy compete against them on the back of an amateur program, and they would be flogged.

Sandell on an EPS is a good option.
But as we know, the last 5-6 signings are always the most contentious.

Clearly there is a problem where some players are retained when they shouldn't be either because they've advanced to a level within the squad they aren't good enough for or they haven't developed as planned (or both).

The proof will be in the pudding next year in terms of who is retained out of Robinson, Tilse and Ryan and out of those who are retained, how they perform and out of those who aren't, who gets recruited instead.

It seems to me that 2016 is going to be the year the Tahs struggle whilst some young players gain experience but things are pretty well positioned moving forward.

Retaining Beale will be crucial to our future but a core experienced group of Hooper, Folau, Beale, Foley, Phipps, TPN, Horne, Skelton looks good.

A younger group who have been amongst the squad for a while and are showing plenty of promise and are starting to get Super Rugby experience under their belts: Robertson, Latu, Roach, Holloway, Dempsey, Horwitz, Kellaway.

And a young group with hopefully bright futures: Hanigan, Orr, Sandell, Toleafoa, Stewart, Gordon, Jones, Perry.

I think a big part of the issue this year is that some of the old heads like Dennis, Mumm, Robinson, Carraro etc. aren't performing well and it is too big a jump for the guys with no experience coming into the starting XV and matchday 23.

I feel like the team will be in a much better position next year mostly because the younger group will be more experienced and really ready to compete at Super Rugby level.

 

[Braveheart81]

Well, he's just turned 24, which for props is nowhere near maturity.

The Crusaders seem to think he's got something going for him.

Will he be the world's best prop, time will tell, but I wouldn't be basing my evaluation on how he performed as a 21-23 year old that's for sure.

Investment in props is long term and Tom Robertson looks very good - let's hope he develops into a world class prop for the Waratahs and Wallabies.

That doesn't make the Michael Ala'atoa release the right decision though.

Was Mike Ala'alatoa actually not offered a contract for 2016 or did he choose to leave?