Waratahs 2013

[I like to watch]

They may not have sole use, but are they getting any use?
Off the top of my head I can quote 2 Manly Marlin players who made their debuts this year for other franchises. How many have debuted for NSW ?
Edit + 1 Rat (force)
Tahs website indicates zero debutantes this year, but surprisingly 4 last year.

 

[fatprop]

You argue like Tahs have sole choice from this nursery. Argue with the facts.

Sole choice, no, a decent basic advantage, sure - the option of moving hundreds of miles or playing where you live.

But we fill the squad with "mature" players who will never threaten, never be serious leading S15 player potential, but are safe.

Prime example, Tahs have a space for a 14/15, we wait forever and give the spot to Trist (the safe option) while the Brumbies pick up Cam Crawford, Sam Waru goes to the Force and John Grant signs for the Tigers. All less safe options, but each a potential match winner.

 

[Dave Beat]

They may not have sole use, but are they getting any use?
Off the top of my head I can quote 2 Manly Marlin players who made their debuts this year for other franchises. How many have debuted for NSW ?

Spot on, and there are a number of other MMM spread around, and the ones lost overseas that have done well for them selves off shore.

 

[Dave Beat]

You argue like Tahs have sole choice from this nursery. Argue with the facts.

MJW - your reply suggests you have a passion equivelent to my frustration.
I have season tickets to the Tah's and the Shute Shield, nursery, 2 Examples the elder statesmen recently signed & why is D Mumm still around?
Then looking at history, the Brumbies won their tittles on teams that were developed from NSW scraps.


Yes I know we can't sign every talent but we do have the ability to keep a far better eye on the talent than the other states. I wish the Tah's had the Rebels;
4 Neville, 5 Pyle, 6 Jones, and the Brumbies 7 Hooper - all young and doing very well, the nursery.

# 8 Palu, and Mowen left? in a quandery here, Palu is still delivering but we need youth coming through.

Happy with the front row.
Half is doing well.
5/8 not sure why we have always struggled here. Give it to a young bolter a go and have a couch with a sound game plan. Remember when Kafer stepped in at 10, it worked because of the game plan.

Have to go to work

BTW Z Holmes had a great game last week.

 

[tigerland12]

McKibbin has agreed to terms for 2 more years apparently.

 

[Braveheart81]

That's good to hear.

I think McKibbin has been good this year and has become a very decent Super Rugby player.

Barnes has to get his goalkicking right though because I think Pretorius should be starting most games and we can't have him on the bench purely because McKibbin is kicking.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

it's a shorter drive from Moore Park to, say, anywhere in the Sydney metropolitan area than it is from Canberra.....there's a head start of a practical kind that is squandered by relying on the GPS, CAS and ISA to produce the players for them (and I do not mean by that to suggest that there aren't able and worthy kids in the other systems - clearly there are).

 

[Braveheart81]

If you look at the current Waratahs, where did they all go to school? Are the GPS/CAS really overrepresented?

Benn Robinson, Dean Mumm - Kings
Tatafu Polota-Nau - Granville South High

Kane Douglas - Maclean High
Dave Dennis - Richmond High
Cliffy Palu - Balgowlah Boys
Lachie Turner - Newington
Rocky Elsom - Nudgee College
Drew Mitchell - St Patrick's College, Shorncliffe
Bernard Foley, Tom Kingston - St Aloysius
Brendan McKibbin - Marist College, Ashgrove
Berrick Barnes - Ipswich Grammar
Tom Carter - Knox
Adam Ashley-Cooper - Berkeley Vale High School
Chris Alcock, Sarel Pretorius - South Africa
Sekope Kepu - NZ

If anything, maybe the Tahs are being let down because the GPS system isn't producing enough good rugby players!

 

[waratahjesus]

One way in which you're rewriting history is to assess elsoms season as if it's irrelevant that a contracted spot was taken up by a crocked player who, on present form, is not better than the bloke they already had (Dennis) or the bloke they let go (Mowen). Elsom has been dead weight on any view until the last 2 weeks and this comp started 3 months ago.


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Elsoms season is irrelevant, management made the call based on more facts than you and I have. You choose to call it a waste. His return was on time meaning that there assesment and planning fir him was completely accurate.

Dave Dennis has been fantastic, Elom coming back has allowed him a bit if a rest, late in the year yes, but if you read articles from the start of the year Cutch was going to get time at 6, that changed due to injury (I'm sure you will see his broken ankle as a sign of board corruption though)

Lastly, Mowen, who gets brought up everytime is evidence of the bias and bullshit that gets hung on the Tahs, they offered the guy a contract, he chose to move. Somehow for people like yourselves it means the Tahs fucked up. Facts says they were more committed to him than he was to them.

 

[vidiot]

Elsoms season is irrelevant, management made the call based on more facts than you and I have. You choose to call it a waste. His return was on time meaning that there assesment and planning fir him was completely accurate.

I can certainly agree with the first bit. It is barely started.

Lastly, Mowen, who gets brought up everytime is evidence of the bias and bullshit that gets hung on the Tahs, they offered the guy a contract, he chose to move. Somehow for people like yourselves it means the Tahs fucked up. Facts says they were more committed to him than he was to them.

You can offer someone a contract and make it a slap in the face....

Still, Dave Dennis and Palu have to my eyes been pretty good and I'm not sure that (for all there was no way I would have signed him) Elsom coming and Mowen leaving has made a big difference to the Tahs, beyond being another manifestation of their pathologic mindset.

Having a backline, and esp a 10 that can't cash the cheques the forwards write is the big problem.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

Best thing Tahs have done all season is sign Hooper imo, the majority of the rest has been poor. The Elsom captaincy was a strange one, there were much better options available. You can't really expect the team to play with much continuity when you deliberately have your leader sidelined for the first half of the season.

 

[Braveheart81]

The facts regarding Mowen that were made public was that he only wanted a one year contract (presumably figuring that his value was rising and he was punting on big offers becoming available). The Waratahs were only willing to sign him to a two year deal.

Whilst I was upset that we lost Mowen after he was excellent last season, I have no problem with the Waratahs sticking to their guns and only offering him a two year contract. If they'd offered him a one year contract, we may have lost someone else and what would be certain is that we'd have to front up with a lot more cash to keep him in 2013.

This happened long before Elsom was available so there is no argument that they didn't sign Mowen because they wanted Elsom. It just isn't the case.

Personally I think the Elsom signing has been an abject failure. I hope that he isn't able to exercise his option to play next year and is moved on. I think the money could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Joe Mac]

In 2011 the Tah's had a horror run of injuries which derailed their season. This was evident to everyone, so I doubt the coaches were oblivious to the issue. So for 2012, you would have expected the recruitment of players without a previous horror run of injuries to join an already ageing squad.

Instead they signed Elsom and Vickerman and the rest is history...

Whether this was a careless oversight or Foley making a conscientious decision to bring old allies into his squad, I don't know. More importantly, I don't care. In professional sport you either live or die by your decisions and in this case, they have royally screwed up another season. Similar to Deans should have bitten the dust after his blundering selection choices (and the loss to Ireland) for the World Cup, the major difference being that there is no quarter final or second chance to save him. If not Foley, his assistants, but radical changes are needed to bring interest back to the Tah's.

Bringing in a ton of superstars to win the comp is not financially viable but I think a huge clean out of the squad would do just as well to ignite passion again in the team. Get rid of Mumm, Elsom, Vicks all of the dead wood... Promote an exciting team of youngsters that can form a core nucleus of the team and lets start from scratch.

It worked for the Wallabies post the Eddie Jones saga. Yes there were up's down's, some embarrassing losses, but it certainly got the public behind the team brought some hope they we were moving in the right direction...

What have they got to lose?

 

[I like to watch]

But we fill the squad with "mature" players who will never threaten, never be serious leading S15 player potential, but are safe.

Prime example, Tahs have a space for a 14/15, we wait forever and give the spot to Trist (the safe option) while the Brumbies pick up Cam Crawford, Sam Waru goes to the Force and John Grant signs for the Tigers. All less safe options, but each a potential match winner.

But at only 29 years of age, with a bit of time Foley can bring him along and he will be a great long term buy......
He is hardly building the foundations of a successful club, what happens when all these mid/late 20 year olds give up. Who is he developing?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

His return was on time meaning that there assesment and planning fir him was completely accurate.

Lastly, Mowen, who gets brought up everytime is evidence of the bias and bullshit that gets hung on the Tahs, they offered the guy a contract, he chose to move. Somehow for people like yourselves it means the Tahs fucked up. Facts says they were more committed to him than he was to them.

On these 2 points: the first is a complete rewrite - go back and read the stuff that was being said about Elsom coming back in week 2...or 3....or 4. I questioned it and was ridiculed at that time. Elsom is a completely unnecessary addition to the team - he's Foley's mate. Thats what got him the gig when NO OTHER PROVINCE WANTED HIM!!!

Why did Mowen choose to go elsewhere? Because Foley wanted Elsom back.

You will defend their indefensible approach until you're blue in the face irrespective of the evidence - too bad they don't return the favour on the park.

 

[Braveheart81]

Who are the Tahs developing?

20 - Tom Kingston
21 - Lopeti Timani (some sources say he is only 19)
22 - Kane Douglas, Bernard Foley, Damien Fitzpatrick
23 - Chris Alcock

We also have a bunch of 24-26 year olds including Lachie Turner, Sekope Kepu, Tatafu Polota-Nau, Berrick Barnes, Dave Dennis, Pat McCutcheon, Sitaleki Timani and Brendan McKibbin.

We're hardly an old team.

 

[Joe Mac]

Who are the Tahs developing?

20 - Tom Kingston
21 - Lopeti Timani (some sources say he is only 19)
22 - Kane Douglas, Bernard Foley, Damien Fitzpatrick
23 - Chris Alcock

We also have a bunch of 24-26 year olds including Lachie Turner, Sekope Kepu, Tatafu Polota-Nau, Berrick Barnes, Dave Dennis, Pat McCutcheon, Sitaleki Timani and Brendan McKibbin.

We're hardly an old team.

My point is that the Tah's have a massive hoarding problem. They need to learn to let go! They spend all their money on useless junk and let it build up, making it hard to sift through the rubbish and find the gems that more often than not, end up in Brumbyland...

Here is a picture inside Foley's office taken in April;

The guy needs some help. He needs someone to come in and clean up Mumm, Elsom, Vickerman so that he can make space for players like Hoops, without them drowning in all the clutter that is Waratahland...

 

[Braveheart81]

Mumm is gone.

Elsom is highly unlikely to play enough games to be able to exercise his option for another season and will probably go.

It's highly unlikely that Vickerman will play rugby again so he will most likely be gone. I'm sure he will make a decision to hang up the boots soon.

I think just about every Tahs fan agrees that the Elsom and Vickerman signings were a mistake. It was a risk to begin with and in hindsight it looks foolish.

 

[mjw]

MJW - your reply suggests you have a passion equivelent to my frustration.
I have season tickets to the Tah's and the Shute Shield, nursery, 2 Examples the elder statesmen recently signed & why is D Mumm still around?
Then looking at history, the Brumbies won their tittles on teams that were developed from NSW scraps.
Yes I know we can't sign every talent but we do have the ability to keep a far better eye on the talent than the other states. I wish the Tah's had the Rebels;
4 Neville, 5 Pyle, 6 Jones, and the Brumbies 7 Hooper - all young and doing very well, the nursery.
# 8 Palu, and Mowen left? in a quandery here, Palu is still delivering but we need youth coming through.
Happy with the front row.
Half is doing well.
5/8 not sure why we have always struggled here. Give it to a young bolter a go and have a couch with a sound game plan. Remember when Kafer stepped in at 10, it worked because of the game plan.
Have to go to work
BTW Z Holmes had a great game last week.

As far as the nursery goes you have to have the opportunity to use it. You want to throw out Mumm - he had a contract. Who else? I would argue there is little need to bolster the NSW forwards. They have done OK this year. We have lacked sparkle in the backs. I reckon we have suffered mostly with the loss of Beale and you don't replace him everyday. That and injuries to Turner and Mitchell, loss of form of a few others, and that is where we are at the Tahs.

 

[mjw]

Mumm is gone.

Elsom is highly unlikely to play enough games to be able to exercise his option for another season and will probably go.

It's highly unlikely that Vickerman will play rugby again so he will most likely be gone. I'm sure he will make a decision to hang up the boots soon.

I think just about every Tahs fan agrees that the Elsom and Vickerman signings were a mistake. It was a risk to begin with and in hindsight it looks foolish.

Both Elsom and Vicks played world cup last year so it wasn't that long ago they played. Selective memories.