Waratahs 2013

[fatprop]

I have nothing against this guy personally, or League players in general,but WTF?
Why is some failed Mungo getting an inside run?
There are over 30 centres/fullbacks who have played SS who deserve an invite before this guy.
And please don't anyone tell me the NYC is a strong standard of league.

Why? is it that hard to work out?

The reality is that there are very few kids who get into a pro rugby union programmes as an 18-19yro, a lot get picked up Toyota cup sides as it is there only pro option. Then only a very few get picked up by NRL sides.

It would be naive not to look at that resource
He has been in a pro environment, he has that pro core fitness that the "over 30 centres/fullbacks who have played SS" just don't have and takes years to get.

So that means "if" he is deemed good enough in a "free trial", he is usable earlier, like now, not 2014 if they are found to work in a pro environment

Also, there are very few decent 10 in aus rugby

 

[fatprop]

Oh dear.. you've got to be kidding me.

So "rolling mauls, pick and drives, strong set pieces" is dour rugby? Yet people wonder why our forward pack has a poor reputation.

yeah, I get annoyed buy this chuck it wide bullocks as the only option

There is no evidence, anywhere, that it is effective without a strong piece and decent forward play

The more I think about it, to me, the Tahs issue has been mental, not technical.

The lack of effort has just frustrated me, there has been a calmness about their play, little urgency at time.

If Cheika can have the side enthusiastically working hard for eachother, the change will be immense

So, the wish list for me is

Serious fitness, lets see them finishing over sides, not hanging on
with real effort off the ball;
in chasing kicks,
creating support options, (from depth)
with backs realigning quickly and with purpose and;
the forwards getting off their arses to get back into play.

 

[I like to watch]

Why? is it that hard to work out?

The reality is that there are very few kids who get into a pro rugby union programmes as an 18-19yro, a lot get picked up Toyota cup sides as it is there only pro option. Then only a very few get picked up by NRL sides.

It would be naive not to look at that resource
He has been in a pro environment, he has that pro core fitness that the "over 30 centres/fullbacks who have played SS" just don't have and takes years to get.

So that means "if" he is deemed good enough in a "free trial", he is usable earlier, like now, not 2014 if they are found to work in a pro environment

Also, there are very few decent 10 in aus rugby

NYC is no more professional than SS, except the Mungoes pay more attention to their off field uniforms.
There are numerous Schoolboys who play in the NYC.How many Schoolboys are mature enough to play SS?
A "veteran" of the SS is significantly more "ready to run" than a discard from a patchy standard of League.
I am by no means saying he should never be looked at due to his background. but he should not be jumping the que sight unseen.

 

[fatprop]

NYC is no more professional than SS, except the Mungoes pay more attention to their off field uniforms.
There are numerous Schoolboys who play in the NYC.How many Schoolboys are mature enough to play SS?
A "veteran" of the SS is significantly more "ready to run" than a discard from a patchy standard of League.
I am by no means saying he should never be looked at due to his background. but he should not be jumping the que sight unseen.

we can agree to disagree there

 

[wamberal]

The Waratahs have to get hungry for victory. Desperate, even.

 

[Lee Grant]

I think one has to seriously question the players the Tahs are inviting to their training group. Like Intruder outlined, they are not the top crop in the Shute Shield.

People should not get too excited about the invited players training group. It does not purport to be the next tranche of players that will run out on the park. If it were, criticisms would be valid - but we mention this kind of thing every year and next year will be no different.

I could probably do a forensic analysis of who should be in the 10 man group of invited players to plug potential weaknesses as well as most, but you have to consider who is ready to commit the best part of 3 months to a project without being paid for doing so.

Some spots are for development and some are speculation. There are two 21 year old props in the mix and an 18 year old fly half, plus a 20 year old giant lock who has not played in Grade. There are two ex league players who may turn out OK but may not - but as fatprop indicated: it would be silly not to take advantage of that source and have a look at them.

Having seen all 10 of the invited guys in training in a one week span, most over 3 sessions, they are going OK.

I spoke to Pat McCutcheon the other day and he had to have corrective surgery recently and won't be running until the middle of next month. AJ Gilbert and Kotoni Ale could both be candidates to back up Hooper at the start of the Super Rugby season - I know that AJ is a specialist 8 but, my word, he has the attributes to play 7.
.

 

[TOCC]

AJ can also play halfback according to Eddie Jones

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I googled the incident Wamberal and it threw up some old names for the game the following week (apologies for the digression). Here are the teams for the 1996 grand final. M Chieka is bracketed given he was appealing his suspension for the hit on Hall in the semi.

This looks like a mismatch when you see the two rosters. I have bolded all of the players from both teams that I can remember playing super rugby in 1996 or the following year.

GRAND FINAL TEAMS

WARRINGAH: Andrew Apps; Jon Carroll, Matt Skene, Julian Bignold, Jim Williams; Rob Walton, Mark Catchpole (capt); Brendan Giles, Cameron Pither, Jon Hart, Rob Blyth, John Hearn, George Websdale, Mark James, Steve Crawford.

RANDWICK: Chris Latham; Gareth Smith, Adam Magro, James Holbeck or Craig McMullen, David Campese; David Knox, George Gregan; Michael Cheika or Bill Wyllie, Stuart Pinkerton, Owen Finegan, Mark Giacheri, Warwick Waugh, Ewen McKenzie, Paul Cheika (capt), Joe Picone.

Referee: Peter Marshall.

Spot the local product in the wicks line up.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Some highlights of the young man

has he got a rugby background?
The forearm at 1:15 would not suggest so.
The thing about that video is that it shows how surprisingly weak the lower levels of mungo land really are.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Why? is it that hard to work out?

The reality is that there are very few kids who get into a pro rugby union programmes as an 18-19yro, a lot get picked up Toyota cup sides as it is there only pro option. Then only a very few get picked up by NRL sides.

It would be naive not to look at that resource
He has been in a pro environment, he has that pro core fitness that the "over 30 centres/fullbacks who have played SS" just don't have and takes years to get.

So that means "if" he is deemed good enough in a "free trial", he is usable earlier, like now, not 2014 if they are found to work in a pro environment

Also, there are very few decent 10 in aus rugby

Its dangerous, I accept to judge a bloke on one 4:40 highlight real, but this bloke aint going to be the answer to a 5/8 problem @ S15 or above. His right to left pass looks erratic - and its already December.

 

[Lindommer]

Spot the local product in the Wicks line up.

David Knox, Michael Cheika, Stuart Pinkerton, Warwick Waugh and Paul Cheika for starters.

 

[I like to watch]

has he got a rugby background?
The forearm at 1:15 would not suggest so.
The thing about that video is that it shows how surprisingly weak the lower levels of mungo land really are.

It's a better standard than colts, but not by as much as many here think.
There are some very good players in this comp, but there are many more ordinary players.Which explains why many of these games are high scoring affairs.

 

[Quick Hands]

yeah, I get annoyed buy this chuck it wide bullocks as the only option

There is no evidence, anywhere, that it is effective without strong piece and decent forward play
.

Correct. As the 1996 Randwick team perfectly illustrates, an expansive game can only be built on dominant forwards.

Why is the dominant club team not playing a similar style now? They have the talent, they're just choosing a particular style of play.

If the object is to win club competitions, it's working a treat.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

David Knox, Michael Cheika, Stuart Pinkerton, Warwick Waugh and Paul Cheika for starters.

and that would be it - didnt Waugh come from out central west way?

 

[rugbysmartarse]

We

has he got a rugby background?
The forearm at 1:15 would not suggest so.
The thing about that video is that it shows how surprisingly weak the lower levels of mungo land really are.

ll he can manage with terrible service, so should be suited to the tahs. Honestly, some of those dummy half passes were shocking

 

[Quick Hands]

has he got a rugby background?
The forearm at 1:15 would not suggest so.
The thing about that video is that it shows how surprisingly weak the lower levels of mungo land really are.

Toyota Cup is of similar standard to our 1st grade colts. As with our colts competition there is also a significant difference between the top 4 or 5 teams and the rest. The main difference would be that Toyota Cup players are paid, whereas most if not all of our 1st grade colts would be amateurs. This would no doubt lead to at least some dual code players have a go at Toyota Cup in preference to colts and then coming back if they don't get an NRL contract.

One of the big weaknesses that league have recognised is that once players turn 20, if they don't get an NRL contract then they go back to the state cup, which is of similar to lower standard to Shute Shield and doesn't really provide a progression to the NRL.

One reason I'd like to see our super teams play each others academy/development squad as a curtain raiser to super rugby matches is so that rugby has a progressive structure which links NGS/JGS to colts to SS to Waratah Academy and then on to the main squad. If they played such matches when Australian teams played each other, the grounds, medical and support staff are already in place to minimise the cost. When Aussie teams play NZ/SAF teams, the players play SS.

This would also help our U/20 JWC programme as the best U/20s would either be in the main super competition or the academy/development squad and would thus be exposed to more high level competition instead of training camps.

 

[mark_s]

I heard/read a stat this week that only 1 in 10 toyota cup players get NRL contracts. Thats a whole bunch of players who miss out and there has to be some late bloomers /missed talent in there.

 

[I like to watch]

Less than 10% of SS players get pro contracts with Super 15 teams.
I vote we go through the missed talent in that pool, before we go trolling through the discards of the other code.

 

[It is what it is]

and that would be it - didnt Waugh come from out central west way?

Yes he did and then went to Scots College.
Just like hundreds of kids who came from the country, via a private school into club rugby.

 

[Lindommer]

Most Scots blokes from those days ended up at Randwick or Easts, that's where their dayboy schoolmates played.