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Wallaby tight five - boys or men?

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Scotty

David Codey (61)
Another thread with the "we only won/dominated because they let us" argument driving it.

Do yourself a favour and accept that in most cases - almost all when playing the top sides - they don't let you win, you have to take it from them. Life can be a lot happier when it's not always "half empty"

Agree. And the score could easily have been much greater in the wallabies favour if not for a couple of dropped balls and them getting a bit loose in the last 20. We most certainly won it up front first and that includes the first 20.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
I had to! You guys just kept posting in this thread. I tried to leave it alone. But every time I opened the site there it was again. Not my fault. Blame yourselves.
boyz_2_men_1.jpg
 
N

Newter

Guest
Men to answer your Question.
If trench warfare against England Scares you, we have ways around that.

Like in November last year? Our flash young backs got nowhere in that Test at Twickenham.
 
N

Newter

Guest
Yeah I agree Braveheart, Alexander had a great game.

How was he supposed to make it to the ruck after Cooper made that break for the first try? He is not Usain Bolt FFS. He did the right thing by coming in to the backline, and he timed his run well to score the try.

The idea that all he does is stand in the backs is rubbish. Watch the game a little closer and you will see his workrate is very good, and he played one of his best games in gold last night.

I don't argue with his workrate. It's his effectiveness that is amateur. He goes in to drive bodies clear of the ball, and 9 times out of 10 has little impact, creates a mess of bodies and no solid platform for other forwards to join from behind. Sloppy.
 

da_grubster

Ted Fahey (11)
I for one am happy where we stand now. We just thrashed the Boks. Elsom, Alexander and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) played themselves back into some form. The back line has finally got the right balance. Our tight five is working hard and the scrum and lineout are solid. There's some very good players to come back into the squad - TPN, Fat Cat, Slipper, Barnes & Mitchell (maybe).

We're pretty evenly matched with the ABs IMO - reckon it'll be 1-1 between us in the TNs/Bled with each team taking their home game.

GC, they were the springboks in name only.
 
N

Newter

Guest
Another thread with the "we only won/dominated because they let us" argument driving it.

Do yourself a favour and accept that in most cases - almost all when playing the top sides - they don't let you win, you have to take it from them. Life can be a lot happier when it's not always "half empty"

Have you been reading Tony Robbins? I'm a fan too. But this time I prefer to see the truth, only because good, virile forward play is such a pleasure to watch and so disappointing when your team doesn't provide it.

I'd be far happier about this win if we hadn't been shoved 20 meters downfield now and then by the rolling maul, hadn't given up a soft try on the goalline, hadn't been stopped in our tracks by sheer direct collisions in the crucial opening quarter of the Test.

Quade's speed of mind and foot is attractive but will it get us a win against well-drilled, experienced defences? I'd rather bank on a hard, clinical forward pack, and we didn't see that on the weekend.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
This loss to the Saffas seems to be getting everyone down. Chin up lads. We'll try to beat them next year!
 

Riptide

Dave Cowper (27)
Wallabies can only beat what is in front of them and I like the way the set-piece and the breakdown went against the Boks. More will be revealed in away games soon.

I'm not getting this England fear at the moment. England are not the forward force they once were. They have begun to select more mobile forwards in an effort to play the wider game that Brian Smith has long favored, and Johnson has been slow in fully supporting. Their starting locks (Palmer, Lawes) are athletic but not the ogres of years past), and their two flanks (Moody,Croft) are more of the high work rate, mobile type (Easter at 8 is a traditional ball control English forward).

Since 2003, Ireland have beaten England 7 out of the 8 times they have played with a pack built around a dominant Munster. Munster's force is fading, and Ireland too have shifted the emphasis to a more mobile, stay on your feet/keep the ball alive game shown to greater effect by Leinster and they have comprehensively and consistently beaten England while doing so. If the Aus scrum can hold up, England will not get that critical advantage to then boss the subsequent collisions.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
In the first quarter of this Test when the Boks were fired up and still confident, they weren't allowing any tricky turnovers. Our forwards were getting clearly beaten. It was only some outstanding footwork and speed from Quade and other backs that put us up on the scoreboard. Until Quade made that break off a right foot step in his own half and the first try went in, we were under heavy pressure.

Then the turnovers came but only after Smit's almost-men began to lose belief. That first quarter was more like what we'll be facing in the remaining Tests this year.

I'm sorry Newter, but you must have written this post either before this game, or after another one.

I've just watched the first 20 through again, and there are precisely 0 rolling mauls from the Saffas and they turn the Wallabies over precisely 0 times at the breakdown during the first 20

They have a couple of runs off the back of the lineout / free-kick, but actually one of those ends up in an Aus turnover at the tackle from Smit that then creates BAs try. There's also the beautiful counterruck near the sideline from the Wallabies in the 13th minute, and another turnover in contact when Kepu and Moore smash Dannie Roussow on the charge at the 20th minute. There's also a great shortside set of hit ups/interchange by the wallabies that goes 40metres around the 16th minute mark.

I'm getting some footage together so I can post it later if you really need it, but you're way off the mark on this one.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I am happy with last night. But I am still quite worried with our lack of consistency at the tough stuff. Every few Tests, it all comes together, and they look like world-beaters. But then we get some in-between performances like Samoa. This lack of consistency, if nothing else, will be a problem in the RWC, where we need to front up every week. If the forwards get that right, I am confident the backs can do their job well enough to beat just about any team. But if we get blown backwards off the ball at every breakdown, and the backs are just defending and kicking, we will look decidedly average. But it was a step forward.

Cyclo - of course, going from the tortuous history of recent Wallaby matches, you are 100% right. Nearly every year there has been a 'we're building something special' after a single exhilarating win, only for a Scotland, or England (multiple times), or a 1H star performance v ABs, and then the inexorable collapse in 2H and another loss to NZ, to emerge and we all justifiably sink back into doubt and bewilderment as to how could this inconsistency be so unchanging. And this lack of enduring success, fight and always-on dynamism has affected Wallaby crowd numbers and the solidity and loyalty of the core Wallaby fan base. It's palpable amongst many people I know who used to be passionate followers of the Wallabies, but gradually became the casual in-and-out drifters.

But I sense that it could be very different this year. Two reasons why: one, we have a matured core of truly exceptional, innovative players in what Lance F has today termed our BOCS, to which must be added Pocock and Ioane. This core fears nothing, and has immense self-confidence, as was on display on Saturday. Coupled with this, the S15 made clear that if we select carefully from the Tahs, Force and Reds 2011 forwards, we now have enough talent and mental strength there to hold our own - consistently - at the breakdown in Tests if the right coaching and technical discipline is applied. Two, and this is not a 'Red glasses on', but the massive value of the Reds' 2011 winning DNA carry-over to the Wallabies cannot be underestimated. When you have an inner and outer core of players that have striven for and actually achieved championship status and all that has entailed, in psychological terms that core will not depart, it will want more and will be sure more can be obtained and that it knows how to obtain it. This is the true gold of championship self-belief and the proven mental and skills capability for all-of-80 that has underpinned it. Just as the recent Bulls and Cru cultures fed their respective national teams' successes, it is, at last, now our turn.

And when you add to the above that the 'right type of flaws' are emerging in the 2011 Boks and ABs camps, our chances for glory - and genuine consistency - have never been better than they are in 2011.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Watching the game again yesterday, I thought the forward performance was actually very good until the bench was emptied.

- We were secure at the breakdown, cleaned out when required and counter rucked a few times too with some success
- The scrum was solid and also put some pressure on the Bok feed
- Lineout was also pretty mistake free, apart from one that I remember when nobody jumped (Pocock still cleaned up though)
- Restarts were passable, with one or two mistakes
- Defence of the rolling maul was a concern, however. We need to do a better job of that, because most of the good teams we will play against do it effectively.

We didn't really try much pick and drive, but that's mainly because Genia was running riot on the fringes and causing all sorts of trouble for the Bok defence. The forwards were good in the loose, especially Moore.
 

EVERYFWDTHINKTHEYREA6OR7

Syd Malcolm (24)
I have to say the tight 5 played well on Saturday night. Particularly at the set pieces. I do fear at times that when out numbered the backs do not fly in to help like other teams to do some work when the need arises. Anthony Faainga did this well when he came on. I am a big Horwill fan. I think Sharpe might be the option here to get the work done. I feel we need a little bit more size out there.

Higginbottom has to find a spot out there, but tell him not to kick please.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
We lose too often to the ABs in the last 20 minutes, nothing on Saturday showed we can get the intensity for the 80 minutes we need.

Saturday was great for 50 minutes, average 10 and mediocre for 20.

Our bench has to do better, we need the lift they can provide, we need that flawless accuracy at the breakdown from those fresh guys to keep turning the screws, not to loosen up and miss tackles.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
We lose too often to the ABs in the last 20 minutes, nothing on Saturday showed we can get the intensity for the 80 minutes we need.

Saturday was great for 50 minutes, average 10 and mediocre for 20.

Our bench has to do better, we need the lift they can provide, we need that flawless accuracy at the breakdown from those fresh guys to keep turning the screws, not to loosen up and miss tackles.

That's why we should have Giteau and Beau Robinson on the bench.
 

Nelse

Chris McKivat (8)
Interesting read that old article. If you notice the main quotes are from Michael Foley, who everyone I'm sure is well aware is forwards coach at the Tahs now. Looks like he hasn't forgotton that idea from the 07 cup. Look at the Waratahs forwards improvement in size over the last couple of years with Douglas, Mowen, Timani all huge units now among others.

Unfortunately, besides Kepu, not too many Tahs forwards in the Wallabies at the moment.

I thought the tight 5 did what was needed on Saturday night, with Horwill clearly relishing being in the Gold Jersey again. He was the standout among them. Interesting that Sharpe didn't have more of an impact when he came on. And I was unsure during the game, but did Pek Cowan come on when Beale went off injured? Were we playing with 9 forwards for that last stanza? (Well 8 + Higgers)..
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
We lose too often to the ABs in the last 20 minutes, nothing on Saturday showed we can get the intensity for the 80 minutes we need.

Saturday was great for 50 minutes, average 10 and mediocre for 20.

Our bench has to do better, we need the lift they can provide, we need that flawless accuracy at the breakdown from those fresh guys to keep turning the screws, not to loosen up and miss tackles.

I think there is no doubt we will lose the last 20 against the ABs if Genia goes off. That was one of the biggest areas. The other is having S Fa'ainga, Cowan and Hodgson as subs. If we are lucky with injuries, then we could see a bench of the following come RWC:

TPN
Alexander
Sharpe
Samo
Higgenbotham or Hodgson
Giteau
Mitchell

That bench is light and day to the one from the weekend, and I have no doubt it could do some real damage if you also have the likes of Genia, Horwill and Pocock playing 80.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Interesting read that old article. If you notice the main quotes are from Michael Foley, who everyone I'm sure is well aware is forwards coach at the Tahs now. Looks like he hasn't forgotton that idea from the 07 cup. Look at the Waratahs forwards improvement in size over the last couple of years with Douglas, Mowen, Timani all huge units now among others.

Unfortunately, besides Kepu, not too many Tahs forwards in the Wallabies at the moment.

I thought the tight 5 did what was needed on Saturday night, with Horwill clearly relishing being in the Gold Jersey again. He was the standout among them. Interesting that Sharpe didn't have more of an impact when he came on. And I was unsure during the game, but did Pek Cowan come on when Beale went off injured? Were we playing with 9 forwards for that last stanza? (Well 8 + Higgers)..

Yes, Cowan came on for Beale. Higgers went to wing and JOC (James O'Connor) to FB.
 
T

TheNextBigThing

Guest
Yes, Cowan came on for Beale. Higgers went to wing and JOC (James O'Connor) to FB.

Not the worst idea. Beefs up the defensive line considerably.

The backline in defense for the last ten was Ioane/Higginbotham, Fainga'a, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Higginbotham/Ioane.

With the wingers defending at ten, that's a very strong defensive line. That being said the Boks did score two late tries. I still think it's a good approach to closing out games.

Kepu is also plays like a handy back-rower so you don't lose too much by having three props on the field.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Not the worst idea. Beefs up the defensive line considerably.

The backline in defense for the last ten was Ioane/Higginbotham, Fainga'a, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Higginbotham/Ioane.

With the wingers defending at ten, that's a very strong defensive line. That being said the Boks did score two late tries. I still think it's a good approach to closing out games.

Kepu is also plays like a handy back-rower so you don't lose too much by having three props on the field.

It wasn't by design - Beale went off injured with a twisted Ankle and all other replacements had been used. Cowan went to 6, Higgers to JOCs wing and JOC (James O'Connor) to 15.
 
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