Wallaby tight five - boys or men?

[Swarley]

Alexander is a seagull and is the weak link in our tight five. He's constantly parked out in the backline and without Slipper/Robinson we can't afford a player like that. His scrummaging is also below-par, and against England and New Zealand he will be targeted.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Totally agree. His try and he was in support of another one were due to him having energy to support, because a backrower was doing his tight work. Our loosies are more effective playing loose and are unable to do that because they have to pick up Alexander's slack.

 

[Braveheart.]

Alexander is a seagull and is the weak link in our tight five. He's constantly parked out in the backline and without Slipper/Robinson we can't afford a player like that. His scrummaging is also below-par, and against England and New Zealand he will be targeted.

Benny A stood up last night. He clearly out played and out scrummaged his opposite number. His work in the tight was improved and he made some great tackles.

 

[barbarian]

Yeah I agree Braveheart, Alexander had a great game.

How was he supposed to make it to the ruck after Cooper made that break for the first try? He is not Usain Bolt FFS. He did the right thing by coming in to the backline, and he timed his run well to score the try.

The idea that all he does is stand in the backs is rubbish. Watch the game a little closer and you will see his workrate is very good, and he played one of his best games in gold last night.

 

[grievous]

Im not convinced after last night, Boks didnt turn up and they are not a pack that has worried us too much recently, espcially as their lineout fades if Matfield isnt on. But we are missing an enforcer and this shows against the ABs, Eng and we can go in our shell against even any of the 6nation packs. There was too much loose ball on the deck later in the game too.
We also have to get over thinking that Pocock can win a game on his own, he can only make the impact we need if the tight five are making yards and know how to ruck

 

[TOCC]

I thought i would dig this article up from 2007

EXPECT a bigger, harder, stronger Wallaby forward pack next time around.
# October 07, 2007 11:30PM

The Wallabies will undergo an intense rebuilding stage to bring their strength and power up to that of rival nations by the 2011 World Cup in New Zealand.

Wallaby coaches recognised as early as two years ago that Australia's forwards have fallen behind the rest of the world in strength and size but were forced to concede there was not enough time to adequately bring them up to speed for this year's tournament.

Their fears were realised in the worst way on Saturday when the England scrum, with four monsters weighing 120kg or more, man-handled the Wallaby forwards to set up their stunning victory.

Australia's heaviest forward is No. 8 Wycliff Palu at 120kg, with prop Matt Dunning next at 119kg.

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After England exploited the Wallabies Achilles heel, forwards coach Michael Foley revealed he has already begun working on making sure the mistake is not repeated.

"The guys we played against today out-muscled us and out-thought us," Foley said.

"What we have got here is a good young group of guys who have done especially well in the time they had to get ready.

"Considering that four years down the track they will all still be here, that physical maturity is going to be there in the likes of the front row and also the two locks.

"The style and direction we have to go in now, to be a dominant forward pack, is to focus on these issues, our strength and power."

The Wallaby pack was outweighed 918kg to 913kg, a deceptively narrow margin skewed by hooker Stephen Moore (112kg) outweighing rival Mark Regan by 11kg.

"They were big guys," Foley said of England.

More significant than the weight difference was the difference in strength.

While several England forwards can bench press 200kg-plus, with loosehead Andy Sheridan pumping out a massive 220kg bench press, the strongest Wallaby is Matt Dunning, who tops out at 180kg.

It gave England a huge advantage in the wrestle.

Tight-head Guy Shepherdson, who packed down opposite Sheridan, acknowledged Sheridan's size and strength made him a "pretty tough scrummager".

"You watch the tapes and analyse as well as you can, but it was certainly tough out there," he said.

Foley said it was virtually impossible to build the right kind of size in time for this year's tournament, but is confident they can in four years time.

"Australian rugby has just moved out of a period of the game where we played a really high number of phases and we asked our forwards to be very, very fit," he said.

England's added size and strength saw them outmuscle the Wallabies in all the key areas, particular at the breakdown where they won nine turnovers.

"They turn the breakdown into 50-50s every time, to their credit," Dunning said. "They contest everything, that's their style of football.

"They contest every facet of the game and to their credit they contested very well and we couldn't place them."

Size wise.. have things changed??

Alexander 117kg
Elsom 106kg
McCalman 106kg
Moore 112kg
Simmons 115kg
Kepu 125kg
Horwill 115kg

 

[wamberal]

We have seen several examples this season of smaller packs dominating larger ones. Strength and technique are equally as important as sheer size, perhaps more so. Then add attitude and motivation to the mix, and there is no reason why a smaller pack cannot hold its own, let alone get over the top of a bigger one.

 

[Ruggo]

Men to answer your Question.
If trench warfare against England Scares you, we have ways around that.

 

[Muttonbird]

Fuck that is hard to read. The two countries I really hate to lose against.

You should be used to it by now.

 

[Lee Enfield]

I think Simmons had a goord game and deserves to the starting 4 for the Wallabies. He and Horwill worked well as a pair and were putting in the hard yards, nothing I saw last night would suggest Sharpe or Vickerman deserve to be 4 more than he does.

 

[grievous]

NZ have never had the biggest packs. SA were huge last night but teddybears. Arg have always shown its about technique, that article may have papered over cracks that have mostly been addressed these days.

 

[Gnostic]

We have seen several examples this season of smaller packs dominating larger ones. Strength and technique are equally as important as sheer size, perhaps more so. Then add attitude and motivation to the mix, and there is no reason why a smaller pack cannot hold its own, let alone get over the top of a bigger one.

I will hark back to the somewhat olden days for an extreme example some younger members will not recognise, Tom Smith of Scotland. He was in his day regarded as one of the better props running around, not only at the scrum but in general play and at his heaviest weighed in around 100Kg. What he didn't have in size he more than made up for in technique and application. He was good enough that he was selected for the B&I Lions ahead of his bigger English rivals.

 

[Set piece magic]

Rugby has changed since 2007. The last time we came up against a team with all brawn and no skill we fucked them over 59 - 16

 

[Gnostic]

Rugby has changed since 2007. The last time we came up against a team with all brawn and no skill we fucked them over 59 - 16

Your very naive if you think the 2002-2004 England side were all brawn and no skill, or the 2010 version as well for that matter. Don't forget the 2009 Boks side which beat everyone in 12 months. In each example the side played their game plan to perfection. The Wallabies have rarely showed that level of execution in their current incarnation.

 

[Gagger]

Another thread with the "we only won/dominated because they let us" argument driving it.

Do yourself a favour and accept that in most cases - almost all when playing the top sides - they don't let you win, you have to take it from them. Life can be a lot happier when it's not always "half empty"

 

[Bruce Ross]

The 2007 Daily Telegraph article reproduced by TOCC should sound alarm bells:

EXPECT a bigger, harder, stronger Wallaby forward pack next time around.

The Wallabies will undergo an intense rebuilding stage to bring their strength and power up to that of rival nations by the 2011 World Cup in New Zealand.

Wallaby coaches recognised as early as two years ago that Australia's forwards have fallen behind the rest of the world in strength and size but were forced to concede there was not enough time to adequately bring them up to speed for this year's tournament.

Their fears were realised in the worst way on Saturday when the England scrum, with four monsters weighing 120kg or more, man-handled the Wallaby forwards to set up their stunning victory.

After England exploited the Wallabies Achilles heel, forwards coach Michael Foley revealed he has already begun working on making sure the mistake is not repeated.

"The guys we played against today out-muscled us and out-thought us," Foley said.

"What we have got here is a good young group of guys who have done especially well in the time they had to get ready.

"Considering that four years down the track they will all still be here, that physical maturity is going to be there in the likes of the front row and also the two locks.

"The style and direction we have to go in now, to be a dominant forward pack, is to focus on these issues, our strength and power."

Four years on it is obvious that the lessons from RWC 2007 have been forgotten. We have made no progress in strength and power; if anything we have gone backwards.

The English under Martin Johnston have very definitely had the wood on us in terms of physicality in our two most recent encounters, and after observing how the Samoans blew us off the ball they are not likely to change their game plan. And our record against the All Blacks since 2007 makes really sobering reading.

Our brilliant backs can look very flashy against disorganised and dispirited teams but they will definitely not have the same degree of freedom when we face an opposition which really muscles up.

Have we already chosen to forget what happened seven days ago?

 

[GC]

I for one am happy where we stand now. We just thrashed the Boks. Elsom, Alexander and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) played themselves back into some form. The back line has finally got the right balance. Our tight five is working hard and the scrum and lineout are solid. There's some very good players to come back into the squad - TPN, Fat Cat, Slipper, Barnes & Mitchell (maybe).

We're pretty evenly matched with the ABs IMO - reckon it'll be 1-1 between us in the TNs/Bled with each team taking their home game.

 

[TOCC]

Just to build on that article... the starting forward pack which they are referring to was:

1. Matt Dunning
2. Stephen Moore
3. Guy Shepherdson
4.Nathan Sharpe
5.Dan Vickerman
6.Rocky Elsom
7.George Smith
8.Wycliff Palu

and a bench of

16. Adam Freier
17. Al Baxter
18.Hugh McMeniman
19. Stephen Hoiles
20. Phil Waugh (vc)

 

[cyclopath]

I am happy with last night. But I am still quite worried with our lack of consistency at the tough stuff. Every few Tests, it all comes together, and they look like world-beaters. But then we get some in-between performances like Samoa. This lack of consistency, if nothing else, will be a problem in the RWC, where we need to front up every week. If the forwards get that right, I am confident the backs can do their job well enough to beat just about any team. But if we get blown backwards off the ball at every breakdown, and the backs are just defending and kicking, we will look decidedly average. But it was a step forward.

 

[ACT Crusader]

I am happy with last night. But I am still quite worried with our lack of consistency at the tough stuff. Every few Tests, it all comes together, and they look like world-beaters. But then we get some in-between performances like Samoa. This lack of consistency, if nothing else, will be a problem in the RWC, where we need to front up every week. If the forwards get that right, I am confident the backs can do their job well enough to beat just about any team. But if we get blown backwards off the ball at every breakdown, and the backs are just defending and kicking, we will look decidedly average. But it was a step forward.

Agree cyclo, OZ just need to get the consistency from game to game right. It's been a while. The rotation of props over say the past 3 years for example never helps a T5 "gel" and build trust.