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Wallaby Locks - The Future

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Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
At the Reds, McKenzie made an art form of preferring open play to set piece work. It was effective at Super level, in part because few teams feature both a dominant scrum and a dominant lineout. Also, Super rugby tends to be more ball in hand and the set piece is used as a platform more often than as a weapon. It looks like he's tried to translate that same approach to test rugby, particularly in the scrum.

But we've now seen 4 tests in which opposing teams used the scrum as a true weapon and the results have been disastrous. If we don't see a change in approach for the EOYT, we're going to be absolutely manhandled. And, after BIL#3, the last thing we need is another atrocious scrum performance against the NH.

The RWC is two years away. It's in the NH. We need to start repairing our scrum reputation now or we'll get whistled off the field in the elimination rounds. If that means sacrificing work around the park, so be it. Slipper to THP, Robbo to LHP, Simmons to the bench.

Is this a factor of the way Link wishes to play or a factor of the limitations of the pack he inherited?

When that pack achieved success playing to that plan (very well executed) they stuck with it. As execution dropped so did success.

I don't see the Wallabies pack in the same way as the Reds, and the game plan certainly isn't Reds Rugby. I don't think the problem has been with game plans as such, it has more to do with skill level failures, especially at the set piece and backline movements. The one area I think there was a game plan failure was at the breakdown with insufficient players committing (though again there continues to be basic failures in technique).
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Yes, the scrum laws have changed however the relative strength of the Wallaby scrum has seemed to move further from where it was than any other team's scrum.

Technique is critical but we're not going to fix our technique in a week (or even a month). I'm going to back Timani with bad technique to provide more push than Simmons with bad technique at TH lock.

All the rumblings in public about Robinson getting dropped seem to relate to workrate rather than scrummaging under the new laws. Surely he is the prop we have that does have the best technique amongst the group. If Robinson has gone from a world class LHP to being a dud under the new scrum laws then he would be about to only international prop that this has happened to from what I can see. Hence why I think his dropping was a mistake and not related to the scrum.
 

Brumby Runner

Jason Little (69)
As a follow-up to my earlier post: I think we have to judge all our locks by their tight work plus their technical and unit ability.

The next thing is how they contribute to the balance in a 23. We often talk about balance in a backline or even a back row, but hardly ever in a second row.

Fair dinkum, some folks talk as though there should be three ball-running blindside flankers in every run-on team, though I agree that there is a case for a Fardy type to be on the bench to cover lock and 6.

It is easier to talk about locks if you have a back row lineout guy who can call the lineouts, but if Mowen is not there who is your lineout caller?

If Mowen is not available, or benched, there is no use saying that Simmons shouldn't be running on because he is one of the few Wallabies' second rowers who calls the lineouts for his Super team.

People say that Pyle does the calling for the Rebels and should always be in the squad—and boy, can he run with the ball and score a try—but how is he in the departments of: being a hard bastard in tight work, bending the line, and making dominant tackles?

And how good is he at lineout calling anyway, and how good is any lineout caller in any Oz Super team for that matter? This was was one reason I liked Sharpie being involved with the Wobs this year: if he didn't know, nobody would.

Lineout calling is one thing and the ability to be able to help the THP at scrum time is another. You have to have one tighhead-lock-who-makes-a-difference-at-scrum-time on the park for an hour.

It is not enough to look at who has packed on the right hand of the scrum for their Super team and tick a box for them: you have to be able to assess their ability in the role, after all, even Nathan Sharpe packed down on the right-hand side for the Wallabies every now and then, and he was a powder puff TH lock.

In my eyes only Skelton (for the future) and Timani stand out in that area in Oz. We can ill-afford to lose Timani overseas especially since the new scrummaging procedure has disadvantaged the Wobs, as I foretold it would—not that this was rocket science.

As one who saw Skelton drop the ball a lot at Tahs' lineout training before most folks had heard of him, he has to prove to me that he has the ability to take the ordinary ball consistently at the front, and also the difficult ball. He also has to prove that he can play flat out for 60 minutes every week in Super Rugby.

And there haven't been a lot coming through schoolboys either who are hard bastard tall timber with a bit of meat of their bones, plus the joy of contact and knocking people over—lots of athletic stringbeans though. I hope that Colts is picking up some late bloomers, as they do in most positions.

Lastly, we come to how athletic a guy is. Now some folks will think of how he can score 50 metre tries and link with the backs. No, that should came after last in test rugby.

By athletic I mean: how good is the lock at getting into position to catch the restart kick, how good his footwork (especially backwards) when running up and down the lineout line to jump or lift, how good at catching the difficult lineout ball and being able to deflect it to the scrummie if he can't catch it, how good at moving sideways to plug a hole around the ruck, how good at bouncing back on his feet so that his team has 15 players for longer etc etc.

Of course, such athletic players who do those things well, often have the ability to do the flashy stuff also, and good on them if they do, but we should look more at tight-five athleticism and not so much at skills that are easy on the eye.
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I agree with the main argument that the locks need to complement each other and work as a unit. The ABs/Crusaders pair is a good example in my opinion. And Retallick is just plain exceptional and easily works well with Whitelock.

Our locks just don't seem to show that same ability to work as a unit, and certainly don't seem to contribute at scrum time as good as they might.

I think Rob Simmons has generally improved this year but still falls short of being a top notch test lock. He seems to go missing during games and I question whether he has the athleticism you mention. Also, his lineout calling has been inconsistent when Mowen has gone off, and he is good for giving away 3 or 4 penalties per game for taking out a lineout jumper in the air or for illegal play at the breakdown. He is a very good jumper and often steals opposition ball, but I question whether these attributes outweigh his deficiencies otherwise.

If Horwill is a certain starter at TH lock, his ability to run with ball in hand and bend the line needs to be balanced with someone with the athleticism to play tighter and with the ability to hit ruck after ruck effectively. I don't see those attributes being displayed by either Douglas or Timani. Scott Fardy exemplifies the type of player needed to complement Horwill imo. The lock with the greatest work rate imo is Sam Carter. He could also fill this role much more effectively than Rob Simmons imo.

If Horwill is out, I think the closest to his type of play is Caderyn Neville, and Hugh Pyle if fit.

I think Skelton will make it at test level one day, and another with fire in the belly is young Staniforth.

Just my thoughts on selecting the locks to complement each other.
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
Is this a factor of the way Link wishes to play or a factor of the limitations of the pack he inherited?

When that pack achieved success playing to that plan (very well executed) they stuck with it. As execution dropped so did success.

I don't see the Wallabies pack in the same way as the Reds, and the game plan certainly isn't Reds Rugby. I don't think the problem has been with game plans as such, it has more to do with skill level failures, especially at the set piece and backline movements. The one area I think there was a game plan failure was at the breakdown with insufficient players committing (though again there continues to be basic failures in technique).

The game plan is different, but the willingness to de-emphasise the set piece in favour of wider skills seems to me to be consistent.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
The game plan is different, but the willingness to de-emphasise the set piece in favour of wider skills seems to me to be consistent.

De-emphasising it or admitting the scrum is woeful and a massive liability and trying to get away from there as quick as possible. I agree somewhat with BH81 in that the scrum will not be fixed in the near term, and since that is the case the conundrum is do you select to minimise the harm there, knowing that even that may not be enough, whilst as a consequence compromising in other areas as well?

IMO until technique is improved not only in the test selected players but also in all the replacements and options at Super Level, it doesn't matter who is selected in the test side the same outcomes will be seen at the set piece so I can see why selections supporting other skills is made in the short term.

In this I don't blame Mckenzie, I don't even lay the blame at the feet of Deans really. The problem harks back to the play by the numbers system of Jones from 2002-2006. Connolly attempted to address the issue but had the same issues of de-skilled props. He was terminated and Deans stated that fixing the set piece was a priority, but I am left wondering if the need for results saw him continue selections as normal simply because none of the other props provided anything more at the set piece and less away from it. The rise of B. Robinson and his ability to domainate on the hit disguised the problems inherent in the scrum up until now. So we are still really in 2002 in terms of scrummaging IMO.
 

Caputo

Ted Thorn (20)
Interesting read but title has morphed into 'Whats wrong with all of our set piece'

I read recently by Paul Cully (SMH), here or at theroar, that Deans only had it half right when he had the mantra of 'play what's in front of you' which should have been 'move whats in front , then play what is front of that.'

I am not sure McKenzie will have fixed the scrum on the EOYT. Will he blood the 'Aussie imports' from the Rebels Smith and Lahiff? When to release Sio for a start.

It may be our diverse group of Super 15 coaches that think this through over the pre season and most interest in Jake.

Unfortunately Ettiene Oosthuizen is only one year into residency and he may make a difference. Eligible at 23.

I wonder would the new scrum laws help or hinder Dan Palmer when fit.
 

Brumbieman

Dick Tooth (41)
Maybe i'm alone in this, but at the moment the best loc pairing in Aus at Super level, is Fardy and Carter. They've got this balance we're talking about, Fardy being the rangy, athletic and mobile 2nd row, and Carter being a total breakdown slut who just seems to get off on cleaning people out.

Am I alone in thinking that Carter must be pretty damn close to being considered for the Wallabies? He's a big bastard, and the Brumbies scrum didn't seem to have any issues at all, with the same front row the Wallabies have had.
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
I'd like to see Carter get a gig on the EOYT. He's big, plays tight and seems like a pretty hard bastard.
 

Bairdy

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Maybe i'm alone in this, but at the moment the best loc pairing in Aus at Super level, is Fardy and Carter. They've got this balance we're talking about, Fardy being the rangy, athletic and mobile 2nd row, and Carter being a total breakdown slut who just seems to get off on cleaning people out.
...
Riiiiiiiight.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
One bloke who I reckon shows some promise as lock and eight cover is Luke Jones. I've seen him playing for Manly in the SS (as well as the Rebels) and I like the kind of in close go forward he brings. He doesn't mind the tough stuff and is a good size. I wouldn't have him starting at lock, but he provides good back five cover.
 

light

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Maybe i'm alone in this, but at the moment the best loc pairing in Aus at Super level, is Fardy and Carter. They've got this balance we're talking about, Fardy being the rangy, athletic and mobile 2nd row, and Carter being a total breakdown slut who just seems to get off on cleaning people out.



No, probably not. Slim would agree. ;)

Timani - Douglas
Simmons - Horwill

Those two combinations suggest otherwise, as would the majority of posters on here.

If Skelton continues to improve at the rapid rate we saw in 2013 I think the Tah's definitely have the best lock options. Once agai this has somehow turned into some sort of domestic super rugby argument when we should really be focusing on which combination is best for Australia.

IMO right now the first two cabs off the rank should be Horwill and Timani. Even though I'm not a fan of Timani we really need some mongrel in behind the THP, one with strength and size who isn't afraid to do the dirty work early on. Pyle or Fardy on the pine. Jones and Neville are two I'd like to see have a go but I can't see it happening until next year or unless the other blokes mentioned make a mess of it..

Douglas and Simmons have not shown enough to suggest they are our best options going forward.
 

Joe Blow

John Hipwell (52)
It's all about balance in the back 5.

If Palu and Higgers were starting we would need different qualities in our locks than those one would think we require now,
With Fardy and Mowen in the backrow I see absolutely no need for Simmons. Timani and Horwill would compliment them much better. If Horwill is not available then maybe Carter or Douglas
If Palu and Higgers were at 6 and 8 then maybe Simmons or Pyle might better balance the back 5 if paired with Kev.

They should all be able to scrum, especially for the first 50 minutes.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Timani - Douglas
Simmons - Horwill

Those two combinations suggest otherwise, as would the majority of posters on here.

How do they suggest otherwise?

Bman was strictly talking about the best lock pairing (as a working unit and not as two individuals) at Super Rugby level, and results might suggest he's onto something..........

But that's also in the context of being part of one of the hardest working back 5 forward units in the competition.........
 
D

daz

Guest
One bloke who I reckon shows some promise as lock and eight cover is Luke Jones. I've seen him playing for Manly in the SS (as well as the Rebels) and I like the kind of in close go forward he brings. He doesn't mind the tough stuff and is a good size. I wouldn't have him starting at lock, but he provides good back five cover.

Agree TBH. He was superb in the back end of the Rebels campaign this year. Another year or two to develop his trade and smooth out the consistency and he could well be one to watch.
 
D

daz

Guest
If Horwill is out, I think the closest to his type of play is Caderyn Neville,

A few mentions for Neville in this thread, but after a promising 2012 he was relegated to the pine for a fair chunk of this year.

Jones and Pyle easily overtook him in the pecking order. I think Neville will get there but right now he shouldn't even be considered for higher honours until he really cements his spot in the Rebels.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Really get sick of that line. Test rugby isn't a development arena.

You are correct that it isn't a development arena.

The way to call for selection in test rugby however is to stand out in Super Rugby.

Pyle has done that in spades in 2013.

I agree completely with daz that you can't say someone isn't suited to test rugby until they've had that experience.

Players who are good enough should be able to succeed at both.

If we're talking about whether players have done enough at Super Rugby level to deserve a chance at test rugby then I would say that Pyle has. He's essentially a loose head lock so should be competing with players like Simmons. Obviously Pyle is injured at the moment, but if that wasn't the case then I would certainly say that it is worth trying Pyle over Simmons.

Neville on the other hand I wouldn't say has done anywhere near enough to force selection. If you're looking at Neville as a TH lock then you are comparing him with people like Douglas and Timani. I wouldn't say that Neville has shown anything at Super Rugby level to suggest that one of those players should be shelved to make way for him. He certainly has plenty of promise but he hasn't been consistently good enough for the Rebels yet.
 
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