Wallabies Watch

[BDA]

Barnes Played some good footy last year against the Northern Hemisphere opponents but I really cant see him in the starting 15 at this point. I see him as a reliable back-up, but not much more. As Gnostic pointed out he doesn't really stand out in any area of the game. It will be crying shame if Barnes is chosen at fullback ahead of Mogg (on current form).

Barnes will definitely be in the squad and I think there will be a good case for his inclusion on the bench at some point.

Also I actually expect Beale to be in the Wallabies squad. He'll be brought back into the Rebels fold in three or four weeks time, and I think it wll be hard to keep him out of the squad. Again I'd use beale in the same role as Barnes; put him on the bench to cover 10, 12, 15.

At the moment I'd pick Lilo on the bench ahead of both Barnes and Beale.

There are a lot of decent options for the Wallabies this year, in most positions. Going to be hard to pick a squad. My top 33 would be

Robinson
Alexander
Palmer
Slipper
Ryan
TPN
Moore
Hansen
Horwill
Douglas
MMM
Timani
Mowen
Higgers
Dennis
Smith
Hooper
Gill
Palu
Fotu
Genia
White
Cooper
Lilo
Beale
Barnes
Taps
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
McCabe
O'Connor
Mitchell
Mogg
Folau

If I had to drop some players out I'd probably get rid of one of the no.7s and probably Barnes.

 

[USARugger]

Ant,

I don't think people want a playmaker at 12, just someone who is able to distribute the ball when required while not compromising defence too much. Taps and Lilo have reasonable defense and can move the ball on or offload when required, not to mention kick as well. McCabe is seriously flawed in these areas.

He can battle it out with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) for the 13 spot where lacking of passing skills aren't as big an issue and straight hard running is a real bonus.

I'd actually say Lilo has even improved defensively from last year and unless things change we wouldn't be compromising our defense at all by having him on the field. It might even be a bit of an upgrade, Taps has honestly looked a little shaky and had some defensive lapses at Super Rugby level already this year. What either of those guys brings to the table absolutely outweighs anything McCabe has to offer. While he's very reliable he is absolutely not the dominant tackling monster people have been hinting he is. Also, what good is a 'straight running' center who straightens the line, doesn't pass and then kills the play only a few meters outside of the 10-12 channel?

 

[Braveheart81]

Barnes Played some good footy last year against the Northern Hemisphere opponents but I really cant see him in the starting 15 at this point. I see him as a reliable back-up, but not much more. As Gnostic pointed out he doesn't really stand out in any area of the game. It will be crying shame if Barnes is chosen at fullback ahead of Mogg (on current form).

Barnes will definitely be in the squad and I think there will be a good case for his inclusion on the bench at some point.

I still think Mogg is going to need to continue to be a superstar in Super Rugby right up until the squad is selected to be a chance at being the starting 15. His defence will be a major worry, particularly with the potential that he will be the last line defender against the likes of Tuilagi, Roberts, BOD, Visser, and North. For someone with questionable tackling ability, these are not the sort of players you'd want running at him in open space.

I think Mogg's best chance is to come off the bench. I find it highly unlikely that we'd pick a debutant at 15 for the first Lions test. I also think he is more likely to be a Wallaby winger than fullback (much like Joe Roff).

Deans will be stuffed either way. If Mogg isn't selected at 15, there will be outrage that a star Super Rugby player has been left out. If he is and struggles on debut, dropping high balls and getting steamrolled by massive Lions backs, Deans will be pilloried for throwing Mogg to the wolves in his first test.

As long as Barnes isn't 10, the Wallabies generally look better with him in the side than out of it. Providing he comes back from the hand injury and doesn't sustain another injury prior to the squad selection, I think he has enough games to prove his fitness and form and retain the 15 jersey.

 

[Gnostic]

If you have been reading my posts for the last 4 years I haven't see a hell of a lot from the Wallabies worth getting excited about except for a couple of games. The Welsh matches last year were a great case in point. SO many were happy with wins against the 6N champions. I saw them as poor, scrappy and error filled games that did little to promote Wales as the best in Europe and confirmed my thought that Deans should have been sacked post RWC. To say Barnes was the best of the Wallabies in that series is saying that he did what he does and is consistent and highlights how average the rest of them were. To quote a single accurate pass is like pointing out a single accurate kick from hand, it is not the norm. If there was truly nobody else available sure I'd pick him, as a last resort.

And finally I would say that nobody has been a standout for the Wallabies at 15 since the ritrement of Latham, simply because none of the contenders have executed the basic skills of the position, such as catching the high ball consistently. It is amazing that Folau comes to rugby and in catching cleanly every single high ball put to him he is immediately a stand out in the position for this skill. Some will say it is the AFL training, but I would reply non of the Kiwi fullbacks have that advantage and the kicking training in AFL certainly did help Israel's kicking on evidence so far.

 

[USARugger]

As long as Barnes isn't 10, the Wallabies generally look better with him in the side than out of it. Providing he comes back from the hand injury and doesn't sustain another injury prior to the squad selection, I think he has enough games to prove his fitness and form and retain the 15 jersey.

When Barnes isn't hurt or kicking the ball away I actually think he's a very talented player. He has one of the best long passing games in the Wallaby camp outside of QC (Quade Cooper) and is very adept at reading defenses, he can also run. Very well-rounded player, you need someone like that in your squad. Going to have to agree with your other post, not really sure what games that other guy was watching.

 

[JSRF10]

Actually ran into Robbie Deans at the Tahs game on Sunday. I'd like to say we discussed at length his thoughts over the Lions series selection and I offered some valuable insight, whilst directing him to this thread. However given I was about 10 beers in he nodded politely and ran away at his first chance.

 

[USARugger]

To quote a single accurate pass is like pointing out a single accurate kick from hand, it is not the norm. If there was truly nobody else available sure I'd pick him, as a last resort.

You said he had a weak long-passing game (which you are just outright wrong about) and he cited the most recent and relevant example. Just because he didn't go back and build you a fucking highlight reel of every long pass that Barnes has ever thrown does not mean it isn't the norm for that player and does anything to discredit his argument. Honestly if you think Barnes actually has a weak long pass you will probably find yourself in a pretty extreme minority.

 

[Braveheart81]

If you have been reading my posts for the last 4 years I haven't see a hell of a lot from the Wallabies worth getting excited about except for a couple of games. The Welsh matches last year were a great case in point. SO many were happy with wins against the 6N champions. I saw them as poor, scrappy and error filled games that did little to promote Wales as the best in Europe and confirmed my thought that Deans should have been sacked post RWC. To say Barnes was the best of the Wallabies in that series is saying that he did what he does and is consistent and highlights how average the rest of them were. To quote a single accurate pass is like pointing out a single accurate kick from hand, it is not the norm. If there was truly nobody else available sure I'd pick him, as a last resort.

And finally I would say that nobody has been a standout for the Wallabies at 15 since the ritrement of Latham, simply because none of the contenders have executed the basic skills of the position, such as catching the high ball consistently. It is amazing that Folau comes to rugby and in catching cleanly every single high ball put to him he is immediately a stand out in the position for this skill. Some will say it is the AFL training, but I would reply non of the Kiwi fullbacks have that advantage and the kicking training in AFL certainly did help Israel's kicking on evidence so far.

What's the point of discussing this with you then?

You think all the players are crap and the team are crap yet these players have consistently outperformed other Australian players in Super Rugby over the years.

It's not like there is this hidden pool of superstar players who are playing for the Mudgee Wombats who would beat the Wallabies if only someone had spotted them and given them the chance.

 

[Gnostic]

What's the point of discussing this with you then?

You think all the players are crap and the team are crap yet these players have consistently outperformed other Australian players in Super Rugby over the years.

It's not like there is this hidden pool of superstar players who are playing for the Mudgee Wombats who would beat the Wallabies if only someone had spotted them and given them the chance.

Do not misrepresent what I said. No where did I say the players were crap. No where did I say Barnes was. Indeed if you had read what I posted I said he was a great talent that has not reached his potential and I disputed the "facts" you presented that he has a good long passing game etc. I and many other just don't see the evidence of this on a consistent basis.

The problem with the Wallabies as a team and as individual players is there has been no construction of a meaningful whole under Deans. That is all the disparate parts from training/coaching, selection for purpose and the development of tactics hasn't been brought together to make a functional whole. Players selected out of position, poorly thought out and incomplete tactics etc all make it difficult for players to execute skills they are expert at let alone one they struggle with. Under such conditions individuals only shine when they are exceptional and sometimes even they struggle to find that consistently.

Back to Barnes, perhaps this is what has happened to Barnes, he was the perfect foil for Cooper at the Reds and they complimented each other very well, after his move to the Tahs things have not worked anywhere near as well. Perhaps coupled with other selections Barnes could execute well and fulfil that early promise. I however think that on form in every position Barnes has played there are other players who warrant selection in front of a player who has not played this year and IMO has demonstrated the skills for which he was supposedly being selected.

 

[fatprop]

Do not misrepresent what I said. No where did I say the players were crap. No where did I say Barnes was. Indeed if you had read what I posted I said he was a great talent that has not reached his potential and I disputed the "facts" you presented that he has a good long passing game etc. I and many other just don't see the evidence of this on a consistent basis.

The problem with the Wallabies as a team and as individual players is there has been no construction of a meaningful whole under Deans. That is all the disparate parts from training/coaching, selection for purpose and the development of tactics hasn't been brought together to make a functional whole. Players selected out of position, poorly thought out and incomplete tactics etc all make it difficult for players to execute skills they are expert at let alone one they struggle with. Under such conditions individuals only shine when they are exceptional and sometimes even they struggle to find that consistently.

Back to Barnes, perhaps this is what has happened to Barnes, he was the perfect foil for Cooper at the Reds and they complimented each other very well, after his move to the Tahs things have not worked anywhere near as well. Perhaps coupled with other selections Barnes could execute well and fulfil that early promise. I however think that on form in every position Barnes has played there are other players who warrant selection in front of a player who has not played this year and IMO has demonstrated the skills for which he was supposedly being selected.

Yeah, if Cooper is selected at 10, then the side needs to be built around his approach to attacking rugby.

Part of that is to have a stabalising unit outside of him, just as Link has done for the Reds with Lance et al.

Now that can be Barnes or Lilo etc, but there needs to be someone who can tackle for him and step up to be that calming influence.

The interesting question is who plays 15, because under this model they play 10 in defense (unless we want to kill Digby again) Beale is a wonderful counter attacker from 15, but is he the best line of defense, stablising unit?

 

[Slim 293]

After this week no real changes to my Wallabies team to take on the Lions.........

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Palmer
4. Douglas
5. Horwill
6. Mowen
7. Smith
8. Palu
9. Genia
10. Cooper
11. Ioane
12. Tapuai
13. Ashley-Cooper
14. O'Connor
15. Mogg

16. Polata-Nau
17. Alexander
18. Ryan
19. McMeniman
20. Hooper
21. White
22. Lealiifano
23. Mafi

 

[USARugger]

Yeah, if Cooper is selected at 10, then the side needs to be built around his approach to attacking rugby.

Part of that is to have a stabalising unit outside of him, just as Link has done for the Reds with Lance et al.

Now that can be Barnes or Lilo etc, but there needs to be someone who can tackle for him and step up to be that calming influence.

The interesting question is who plays 15, because under this model they play 10 in defense (unless we want to kill Digby again) Beale is a wonderful counter attacker from 15, but is he the best line of defense, stablising unit?

Based on the current Super Rugby season Cooper is a better tackler than Beale now.

 

[rugbysmartarse]

Yeah, if Cooper is selected at 10, then the side needs to be built around his approach to attacking rugby.
snip
The interesting question is who plays 15, because under this model they play 10 in defense (unless we want to kill Digby again) Beale is a wonderful counter attacker from 15, but is he the best line of defense, stablising unit?

While I think QC (Quade Cooper) is our best 10 and should play there against the lions, the ploy of dropping him to 15 on defense, whether for additional counter attack or defensive frailties, I think is too disruptive to the backs alignment and also team selection. If we have someone like KB (Kurtley Beale) or Mogg at 15 then I think their counter attack is good enough and QC (Quade Cooper) can stay in the defensive line at 10. He has shown in the last few games he can tackle when he needs to, and if he has a good defender outside him and the OSF inside him then there shouldn't be too big a problem in his channel.

 

[Slim 293]

I would put it out there that in 2013 Mogg's counter attacking from fullback has been much more impressive than Cooper..........

 

[something]

Put Mogg to 15 and let QC (Quade Cooper) defend at 10. simple.

Mogg deserves a spot over Beale (or anyone for that matter) he has consistently played the best & hasn't had any off field "adversities".

Otherwise (and this pains me to say this) but after a few games why not Folau. He is getting improving his game immensely week in week out. He is, as a full back should be, incredible under the high ball (though issy is a bit better than everyone else i reckon) & has an awesome running game. With a bit more experience his D will improve, he has a massive boot so his kick awareness will improve & he will be a much more well rounded player...

...but put Mogg at 15

 

[Braveheart81]

Put Mogg to 15 and let QC (Quade Cooper) defend at 10. simple.

Mogg deserves a spot over Beale (or anyone for that matter) he has consistently played the best & hasn't had any off field "adversities".

Otherwise (and this pains me to say this) but after a few games why not Folau. He is getting improving his game immensely week in week out. He is, as a full back should be, incredible under the high ball (though issy is a bit better than everyone else i reckon) & has an awesome running game. With a bit more experience his D will improve, he has a massive boot so his kick awareness will improve & he will be a much more well rounded player.

.but put Mogg at 15

The biggest thing to remember is that there are still 9 rounds to play before the initial squad is selected. At this point the players who haven't played for the Wallabies are a long way from securing a spot in the squad. Early season form will count for little if they're not still dominating in the weeks leading up to the squad being picked.

 

[fatprop]

I would put it out there that in 2013 Mogg's counter attacking from fullback has been much more impressive than Cooper....

true, but you ain't going to build a side around Mogg - I doubt if will even get a start

 

[qwerty51]

Palu is suppose to be back this week. Just on him, it seems like he plays really well against the British and Irish teams, all his best games in gold have come against them.

 

[Scotty]

I still think Mogg is going to need to continue to be a superstar in Super Rugby right up until the squad is selected to be a chance at being the starting 15. His defence will be a major worry, particularly with the potential that he will be the last line defender against the likes of Tuilagi, Roberts, BOD, Visser, and North. For someone with questionable tackling ability, these are not the sort of players you'd want running at him in open space.

I think Mogg's best chance is to come off the bench. I find it highly unlikely that we'd pick a debutant at 15 for the first Lions test. I also think he is more likely to be a Wallaby winger than fullback (much like Joe Roff).

Deans will be stuffed either way. If Mogg isn't selected at 15, there will be outrage that a star Super Rugby player has been left out. If he is and struggles on debut, dropping high balls and getting steamrolled by massive Lions backs, Deans will be pilloried for throwing Mogg to the wolves in his first test.

As long as Barnes isn't 10, the Wallabies generally look better with him in the side than out of it. Providing he comes back from the hand injury and doesn't sustain another injury prior to the squad selection, I think he has enough games to prove his fitness and form and retain the 15 jersey.

I am getting sick of picking players for the wallabies that are out of position though. Barnes isn't going to play 15 for the Tahs with Folau there. Beale isn't going to play 15 for the Rebels (he might not play anything for the Rebels for a while). For mine we need to start sticking to picking players in the position they are accustomed to for their super teams, with the only exception being that a fullback could be selected for the wing.

So for mine it is down to Mogg, JOC (James O'Connor) and Folau for fullback. If we don't want a rookie then the spot is JOC (James O'Connor)'s.

And I'll add to that - say bye bye to counter attack if Barnes is at 15.

 

[Scotty]

I would put it out there that in 2013 Mogg's counter attacking from fullback has been much more impressive than Cooper....

And Mogg has the bigger boot as well.