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Wallabies vs Wales, Sunday Dec 4

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GaffaCHinO

Peter Sullivan (51)
Forward wise Salesi Ma'afu is disgustingly over weight and slow,

Yes this might be true but wasnt it nice to see our scrum go forward no backwards?!!!!! Who cares if he doesnt do much around the park he is a prop FFS i cant wait to see him here in perth.

He also made a massive tackle on one of the Welsh boys (not sure who) but we got pinged from the TJ for no arm which was bull...Our Scrum is lloking good in 2012!

Tatafu Polota-Nau again I think is one of the problems is the scrum.... Few replays show that he hooks way to late or not at all in some games....

There is not hook anymore, with the way scrum half’s are putting the ball into the scrum it goes straight behind the hookers foot. TPN look as though he stops the Ball then they try to win the second shove to get it to the back. The ball has not momentum that why its takes so long to get to the back.
 

Schadenfreude

John Solomon (38)
I did think that bringing on the weaker scrummagers (not qualified to make that comment) after half time doesn't give the opposition coach the ability at half time to direct more attack on the scrum... though I suppose they're smart enough to know that it's coming.
 

vidiot

John Solomon (38)
I don't mind the fatties being fatties if they can shuffle forward at scrum time. Ignoring small print like the Krapshoot refereeing and feeds, when was the last time you looked at the stats and saw the wallabies win the scrums 8:1?
 
T

TOCC

Guest
lets not get ahead of ourselves, Wales have one of weakest scrums in the tier 1 nations and arent exactly a litmus test
 

Schadenfreude

John Solomon (38)
Apparently Turner played the last 20 mins with a broken thumb.

How many injuries is that?

Oh and anyone know if Pocock is OK?
 

biggsy

Chilla Wilson (44)
There is not hook anymore, with the way scrum half’s are putting the ball into the scrum it goes straight behind the hookers foot. TPN look as though he stops the Ball then they try to win the second shove to get it to the back. The ball has not momentum that why its takes so long to get to the back.[/QUOTE]


So no teams hook the ball anymore, you just rely on the scrum half to feed the ball through the feet front row locks and it comes though to the back eventually.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
I have just had occasion to watch the game again; this time with the Brit commentary from the affable Welshman Eddie Butler and the acerbic Pom, Brian Moore. It wasn't a bad effort for a scratch team in the 2nd half, though with so many injuries now it's hard to say what our real team is.

In the first half Wales looked like the 8th ranked team they are but the trouble was that Oz looked about 7th. There wasn't a lot of hard running up the middle into contact by either side, nor much traffic going the other way by way of counter. And it was scrappy.

Oz looked the more likely to score a try and Turner nearly did as Ickle, to his credit, stopped the brilliancy. Apart from that I spent the first 40 minutes waiting for the game to start.

To their credit the Wobs upped the tempo after oranges; then of a sudden the Wales fullback made it easy for them by getting a yellow card.

In the end I thought the score flattered the home team but was glad that Ickle got a try.


Some other stray thoughts:

• The Wobs execution of the game with an extra man, like a chess master a pawn up, was the shining point of the game for Australia. Within that you have to add the Larkham 20metre pass to Turner to score. Magic.

• As foretold, Wales beat Oz at the breakdown because more than one fellow keyed in on it. They were more scientific in their work too. I remember one occasion just after oranges when Turner went to ground and JOC (James O'Connor) stepped in from the side gate to help him. Simmons came barrelling in and took out JOC (James O'Connor), just missing Jenkins who poached the ball.

It was yet another example of Oz bonehead play at the ruck, which includes not applying force to the right spot: opposite the the ball and against the body or arms of opponents over the ball. They have a blowfly technique: just barge at the light.

• After their 10 minutes of brilliant play against 14 men it's a pity that Oz put the cue in the rack. Wales played well whilst the Wobs were thinking about the flight home and being back with their wives or girlfriends, or both, but they did that in the Bronze match too and it wasn't clinical enough in my book.

It was great theatre for the Wales fans though.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
• Slipper's LH side of the scrum went well against scrubber THP Andrews, He did so well that, with all the front rowers bound tight, the front row moved like a spoke, with Ma'afu at the centre. Sometimes defending THPs allow this deliberately but poor old Andrews suffered it too many times for it to be a ploy. The contrary result was that Slipper's good work sometimes denied right shoulder to the Oz scrum when it could have been used to advantage.

• I am glad that Ma'afu got a shot at starting in both games on tour as he has travelled a long road and stumbled a few times. Not to the point of the game but his move to the Force could be a good thing for Oz rugby. It means that the he, Alexander and Kepu could be starting at THP every weekend in Super Rugby next year. Add in the contest between Fat Cat and Slipper for the LHP spot and hopefully Holmes and Palmer playing well enough to be added to the mix, and our propping stable should be able to cope with injuries better than we have in the past.

• JOC (James O'Connor) had a fair game at flyhalf although some of his kicking from hand was crap; and he has to learn to kick with his left foot because the one LF kick he tried, he shanked. I see that he has omitted that marking time step in his goal kicking run up after Stringer swiped the ball in the Baas game - and it seems to have affected his mojo. I knew he was going to miss that penalty kick in front because he lurched to the left before impact.

• Barnes was my MOTM as he was in the Bronze game though I was tempted to take off points for that rush up tackle that missed Ickle after the bell. Another rusher, Simmons, didn't follow up his bright stint against the Baas, and his rush at Priestland should have ended with a completed tackle but didn't.

• It's hard to judge these things from the armchair but Horwill stepped up as a captain in the game IMO. He was tops as a player but his decision to go for the try after the disappearance of Halfpenny, triggered the winning of the game in 10 minutes.
 

Willus

Bob McCowan (2)
Just a few things to point out...

- I really don't want to take anything away from the performance of the Aus front row but if you guys can remember Aus vs Wales '09, the Welsh scrum was demolished there too. Fast forward a couple months in '10 and our scrum was the laughing stock of world rugby. I'm hoping it's not just a case of speaking too soon.
- As much as I'd like to see JOC (James O'Connor) run a little wider I'm a bit concerned as to how he'd do at 12. There are some FAST and BIG units in that channel there. Barnes really is the backline general in D and I'm just a bit concerned as to how JOC (James O'Connor) would handle players like Nonu, SBW, Jaime Roberts, JDV etc.
- There needs to be someone consistent at no. 8 as of next year; as much as I love watching Samo, the man is nearing his limit. I was at TN6 and cheered until my voice started hurting when Samo scored his try, but alas there needs to be someone solid to develop at no. 8 when the inevitable happens in a couple years (months?) time. I'm really hoping Robbie doesn't stretch out Samo's time-limit at no. 8 and then give the next candidate 2 or so years to prove himself. McCalman should get benched IMO, the man can cover lock and all loose-forward positions with some degree of competence. If that's not utility value then I'm not sure what is.
- I personally think Higginbotham is more of a blindside winger and I say that because although he does seagull a lot, he seems to be quite effective with his hands on the ball out wide. Anyone remember that chip and chase then offload against Samoa? Scoreline would've been even more embarrassing if it wasn't for that absurd moment.
- Choice as a "backup 7"; yes, Hodgson is a good pilferer but I'm not really a fan of his ball-carry. McCalman is definitely a better ball-carry option as a 7. As much as I'd like to see Robinson get given a chance, I think it's really only a matter of time before Gill gets blooded.
 

Swat

Chilla Wilson (44)
- There needs to be someone consistent at no. 8 as of next year; as much as I love watching Samo, the man is nearing his limit. I was at TN6 and cheered until my voice started hurting when Samo scored his try, but alas there needs to be someone solid to develop at no. 8 when the inevitable happens in a couple years (months?) time. I'm really hoping Robbie doesn't stretch out Samo's time-limit at no. 8 and then give the next candidate 2 or so years to prove himself. McCalman should get benched IMO, the man can cover lock and all loose-forward positions with some degree of competence. If that's not utility value then I'm not sure what is.

Am I the only one who thinks 2 rats would make a great 8?
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
Am I the only one who thinks 2 rats would make a great 8?

Nope. He looks to me like an 8 trying to play like a lock and its not really suiting him. Not sure if that was the coaching or he just isn't comfortable with his own game yet. With the backrow options at the Tahs i don't think he will get much of a run there though. Elsom, Dennis, Mowen, Palu are all probably ahead of him. Good thing at least 2 of those will be out injured at any one time.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
From a Wales point of view: they tried to play too much rugby with slow ball and didn't succeed. Running straight would have helped, but Oz defenders had no great problem tackling big boppers North and Roberts, the best Wales straighteners; nor did they in the RWC Bronze game.

• Was impressed by lock Ian Evans, someone I had not taken much notice of in his other games for Wales, or for the Ospreys for that matter.

• Scrummie Phillips and THP Adam Jones were missed but Oz had more 1st pick players out yet missed them less. One thought that with Priestland and Warburton back in the team, that Wales would play better than in the Bronze game, but they didn't.

But those two played well: Warburton has shone against us before but Priestland, new to the Wallabies, performed with that calming patience and confidence that Hook has always lacked and S. Jones has lost. At the end of the 2011 6N most people thought that Biggar would be the natural successor to the other two but in a RWC trial against England Jones was injured in the warm-up. Priestland, on the team sheet as the fullback, moved to flyhalf, where he played sometimes for Scarlets.

Shades of Bernie Larkham - a star was born.

• LHP Jenkins was best for the home side. All our props and hookers should watch how Jenkins defends in the ruck and attacks the ball. Mind you, he did the same against us a year ago and and our guys didn't take the tip then. Yes, their main job is to scrummage and the hooker has to throw the ball in accurately, but front rowers have the right build to stand over the ball and should be looking for more things to add to their CVs.

• Wales played well in the RWC trials and beat England in one of them; then they surprised most folks in the RWC itself. But they should have done better in the Bronze match and better still at home on a great occasion last weekend. Had we seen just those last two games we would have wondered what all the fuss had been about.

Wales will have to step up in 6N otherwise it will be another false dawn.
.
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
If they don't get Charteris or AWJ back for the 6Ns they won't be going any where. Whilst Evans had a good return, Davies were poor and they missed Charteris' workrate in the tight. They need to get back to giving Roberts 1st phase ball crash ball. I have no idea why they didn't use this tactic, most of the time they used Roberts as a decoy. Barnes was defending very poorly in the game, not in the sense of bad reads but he got bumped quite often, Roberts running at him would've been ideal for the Welsh.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Nope. He looks to me like an 8 trying to play like a lock and its not really suiting him. Not sure if that was the coaching or he just isn't comfortable with his own game yet. With the backrow options at the Tahs i don't think he will get much of a run there though. Elsom, Dennis, Mowen, Palu are all probably ahead of him. Good thing at least 2 of those will be out injured at any one time.

Removed the Brumby...

And with Elsom/Palu unlikely to play more than a handful of games between them there could always be the opportunity.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
• LHP Jenkins was best for the home side. All our props and hookers should watch how Jenkins defends in the ruck and attacks the ball. Mind you, he did the same against us a year ago and and our guys didn't take the tip then. Yes, their main job is to scrummage and the hooker has to throw the ball in accurately, but front rowers have the right build to stand over the ball and should be looking for more things to add to their CVs.

Benn Robinson is another good example of a front rower with a versatile CV, he does a lot of work on the ball at the breakdown.

I thought the Welsh really missed J Davies as well: Scott Williams was fine without being outstanding. Davies provides a good foil for the crashabash Jaimie Roberts.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Kaplan

.
Kaplan had his usual game he has these days: missing a lot of stuff but using his experience to manage the game better than most.

Scrums

His refereeing of the scrum was a lucky dip. I started to write down a few things but had to give up.

• The 1st scrum ended with an early engage signal against Oz. He must have great eyes because I missed it.

• The 2nd scrum, called by Wales as a result of the 1st one, ended with a penalty to Oz, signalled as Wales pulling down, yet the Aussies drove through the hit before the ball was put in: something Kaplan usually pings like Ming the Merciless.

• The 3rd looked exactly the same as the second; yet this time Kaplan gave the early engage signal against Oz. They engaged at the same time, but maybe that's the signal they give also when a scrum pushes through the hit because the Wobs did it again.

• The 4th scrum was the first that ended in a result - and in the 5th the Wales THP had to turn in under pressure and Slipper went to a knee because there was nobody in front of him. But no penalty for Oz.

I gave up after that. I'd rather have Poite who refs on the vibe of the situation, yet doesn't hold that because one team was penalised one time they have to be pinged the next time.


Deliberate knock ons etc


• Kaplan missed as much for Wales as he did for Oz, (after oranges, not before), but there were two deliberately knock ons (by Hook and Priestland) that you know were noticed, because the scrums were set. But they weren't penalised, and one wondered why not, when neither player had their palms up and could never have gathered the ball.

• But not noticing that a poor Wales box kick from the lineout, that didn't go very far, was fielded by Warburton, a player who was in the lineout and 5 metres offside? That was a more obvious howler because everything was close to touch and Kaplan and the touchie had a good view.


No penalty try

• The decision not to award a penalty try was ineffectual because Horwill declined a kick at goal and Oz scored anyway, but the matter is of interest.

Poor old Halfpenny was between a rock and a hard place: tackle JOC (James O'Connor) and he doesn't try to take the ball and it's a penalty; wait until he takes it and he's got a couple of steps and he will probably score in the tackle. Halfpenny was not entitled to natural justice so “What else could he do?” does not apply.

Unlike some, I thought it was a definite penalty, and like the Pom commentator Brian Moore (who is also a solicitor and an ex-international), I thought it was a penalty try also.

Halfpenny touched JOC (James O'Connor) a frame before the ball did IIRR, but it should have been a penalty anyway had the ball touched JOC (James O'Connor) first.

When a fellow chests or bellies the ball through you can't tackle him. But when he tries to take a bouncing ball and knocks it up, it is fair play to make the tackle because if he regathers it he can play on. He is therefore deemed to be in control of the situation after the knock and before the regather. This doesn't apply to chesting the ball.

I'm sure you won't find it in the law book and it's probably not in a ruling on, or clarification of, the laws either. It may be just a convention that referees use, like allowing scrummies to put their hands into the ruck to fish the ball out. Whatever – it has always been deemed a penalty in games I have seen.

• But a penalty try? If you take Halfpenny out of the equation, which I believe is the thought process used, JOC (James O'Connor) scores, albeit in the tackle of North – probably - and “probably” is all you need. Because North was behind JOC (James O'Connor), “certainly”was closer to the mark.

Probably.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
Benn Robinson is another good example of a front rower with a versatile CV, he does a lot of work on the ball at the breakdown.

I thought the Welsh really missed J Davies as well: Scott Williams was fine without being outstanding. Davies provides a good foil for the crashabash Jaimie Roberts.

That all round ability is the reason Benny R is a fantastic player and why I don't particually like pot plant props or pay much creedence to the idea that bigger is better. James Slipper is also proving to fit into the same mould which is great for Wallaby rugby.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Lee - I was reminded a bit of Ron Cribb's tackle on Joe Roff which was given as a penalty try, but that was much more clear cut, as opposed to J'OCs (mainly because Roff had clearly already toed ahead the ball prior to the tackle, and obviously had Cribb for pace). I had some small doubt at first viewing that J'OC would've been the first to dive on the ball had the tackle not occurred, which I guess is reason enough not to award the penalty try, if you apply the letter of the law.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Disagree,

Sure Cribb's action was more obvious but I'm watching the Halfpenny incident now.

If you take Halfpenny out of the equation, because he tackled JOC (James O'Connor) without the ball (he pinned both of JOC (James O'Connor)'s arms perfectly and the ball came off JOC (James O'Connor)'s belly down to a thigh), the question of who would have got to the ball first does not arise. It doesn't matter: without Halfpenny present JOC (James O'Connor) would have taken the ball comfortable at belly height and scored, probably in North's tackle.

But if it did matter: and Halfpenny had not tackled him, JOC (James O'Connor) was in front of the Welshman and had body position on him. Halfpenny went straight for JOC (James O'Connor), and did not try a straighter line to overtake him to get shoulder to shouder, and/or hope for a bounce more favourable to his line of run beside JOC (James O'Connor). He had no time for that and of course: with no tackle it wouldn't have happened: JOC (James O'Connor) would have taken the ball. Probably.

You can't take a more favourable scenario for the transgressor into account and suppose that if JOC (James O'Connor) had bellied the ball forward of his own volition, what might have happened then - then also suppose that Halfpenny did not go straight for JOC (James O'Connor) in the first place but on a straighter line to maybe get to the ball first.

Nor can you suppose another alternative: what would have happened if he didn't tackle JOC (James O'Connor) illegally but did it legally a step or two later....... unless you have money on the defending team.

I think Kaplan erred in not awarding the penalty try. As Brian Moore said: "Wales were lucky not to concede a penalty try."

Fortunately it didn't matter.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
That all round ability is the reason Benny R is a fantastic player and why I don't particually like pot plant props or pay much creedence to the idea that bigger is better. James Slipper is also proving to fit into the same mould which is great for Wallaby rugby.

I like the way Slipper and Robinson's strengths work together, too. Slipper is turning into a good tight runner, and has some on ball skills too, while Robinson has the same on ball skills with a looser, linking role. Good combination.

The sad thing is the Ben Alexander is probably the pick of the litter in terms of ball running. If only we could fit all three on the field...
 
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