Wallabies vs Wales - Docklands Stadium June 16

[Braveheart81]

So it seems that most people want Robbie Deans to select the best team available, but only if Robbie Deans' best team matches their best team available. They also want him to give experience to less experienced players but only the less experienced players that they consider better than the less experienced players currently getting experience in the test side.

Got it.

 

[RedsHappy]

RH, In the context of building a 'championship' team, we would surely expect a few more players to be exposed to the tests vs Wales, provided we are not reducing the quality of our team to do so. Eg Shipperley, Douglas, Pyle and the likes of Alexander, Moore and Dennis in the starting lineup.

Scotty, personally I agree with you. And, interestingly, I note that leading coaches now talk of the criticality of building the right squad of players (in terms of both quantity and quality), vs solely the right team of players, which aligns with your point.

But we know that RD applies a 'stubborn loyalty' principle whereby he will persist for long periods with players he's picked as favourites even though many of us perceive superior alternatives either for regular play, or as consistent squad members.

 

[RedsHappy]

So it seems that most people want Robbie Deans to select the best team available, but only if Robbie Deans' best team matches their best team available. They also want him to give experience to less experienced players but only the less experienced players that they consider better than the less experienced players currently getting experience in the test side.

Got it.

Bh, btw, what is wrong with this? Isn't the beauty of these open fora/blogs etc, one where we can all challenge the status quo with our own views and argue our cases re selections, tactics etc.?

Your perspective seems to infer that the sounder approach we should all take is: Robbie probably knows best, and his 'best team' is simply the one we should back in some kind of schoolboy loyalty model of supporting the national team.

Or, what are you suggesting?

 

[Braveheart81]

Nothing is wrong with it. I was just pointing out that it seems that it doesn't really matter what RD does, he is going to get criticised for it.

I guess that is the problem once you become an unpopular leader. You even get criticised for the good things that you do.

I think RD has made many average selections and my biggest gripe against his coaching would be his poor use of the bench. I do think he has blooded a good number of players relative to previous coaches and we are finally in a position where we have a bit of depth.

I would say that it is going to be hard for him to debut many more players this season due to the immense pressure on him to win. A lot of us would love to see players like Pyle, Douglas, Mowen, Shipperly, and Foley capped although now that would seem less likely. At this stage, Nic White is the only player almost certain of being capped in the next two tests.

 

[Scotty]

So it seems that most people want Robbie Deans to select the best team available, but only if Robbie Deans' best team matches their best team available. They also want him to give experience to less experienced players but only the less experienced players that they consider better than the less experienced players currently getting experience in the test side.

Got it.

I think you could argue that he did select the best available for the first test when you take into consideration the scheduling difficulties (except for Vuna's selection, which was clearly a developmental one). However most on this site had an expectation that the 'top team' would be selected for the second Wales test, when scheduling wasn't an issue.

Now that we have won the first test this idea seems to have been thrown out the window.

One aspect of the selection that I do agree with is the bench. He has selected a horses for courses bench, that are highly mobile - Dennis, Hooper, Alexander, and it worked well against the Welsh (albeit 10minutes too late).

 

[fatprop]

Scotty, personally I agree with you. And, interestingly, I note that leading coaches now talk of the criticality of building the right squad of players (in terms of both quantity and quality), vs solely the right team of players, which aligns with your point.

But we know that RD applies a 'stubborn loyalty' principle whereby he will persist for long periods with players he's picked as favourites even though many of us perceive superior alternatives either for regular play, or as consistent squad members.

They talk about the "the right squad of players" for club teams.

I would prefer to see simply the best 22 go out each week for the Wobs.The challenge is that that decision will always be a controversial at times with a coach seeing more in one player than certain fans.

Let the development happen at S15 level like real countries.

 

[RedsHappy]

Bh, IMO worth noting that if you spend just a little time watching NZ rugby blogs there's huge amounts of argument over AB selections, both before and after the AB team is announced.

This is despite the fact that The Cartel was held in much higher regard by NZ fans than RD is esteemed here. So, I don't think it's rigorous to mount the argument that Robbie is getting his selections argued over just because he's generally unpopular. And few posters here are arguing for some kind of radical reconstruction of the whole Wales 2 team, they are mainly arguing over a handful of players/positions, which strikes me as healthy and fair enough, even if one disagrees with poster A or B's advocacy.

The Wallabies are surely not some kind of monarchical icon that should by definition be loved and adored by all. We fans are 'stakeholders' of sorts in this team, our attendance at games and our Pay TV subscriptions materially part-fund the player and management and coaching salaries. We have every right to argue over the best way to manage and select and develop the team.

 

[fatprop]

I think you could argue that he did select the best available for the first test when you take into consideration the scheduling difficulties (except for Vuna's selection, which was clearly a developmental one). However most on this site had an expectation that the 'top team' would be selected for the second Wales test, when scheduling wasn't an issue.

Now that we have won the first test this idea seems to have been thrown out the window.

One aspect of the selection that I do agree with is the bench. He has selected a horses for courses bench, that are highly mobile - Dennis, Hooper, Alexander, and it worked well against the Welsh (albeit 10minutes too late).

more of a compromise to me, he offers a lot, but has clear weaknesses, a lot like Cooper to me.

 

[kronic]

Platform 23 is quality, but no pints. Also, they have an inconsistent team colours rule - they don't allow them unless it's a sellout, pretty much.

Agree, that's usually a pre-nixon venue. As the Nixon never opens on time as stated.

 

[Richo]

The Wallabies are surely not some kind of monarchical icon that should by definition be loved and adored by all. We fans are 'stakeholders' of sorts in this team, our attendance at games and our Pay TV subscriptions materially part-fund the player and management and coaching salaries. We have every right to argue over the best way to manage and select and develop the team.

Surely we all post on here from a passion for the game and an enjoyment of debate over its past, present and future. I suppose it's conceivable that something said here could lead to a substantive change in the game, but that's pretty bloody unlikely.

All this is to say that BH is just pointing out the obvious: many of our selection complaints come down to our subjective viewpoint. Some, such as switching Kepu and Alexander from their better sides, have a substantive basis. Many seem to come down to whether we like Horne or Fainga'a more.

This is not to say we shouldn't argue and debate -- that's the fun part! -- but it doesn't actually matter either way.

(I know, RH, you're not suggesting that it necessarily does matter... I'm more just riffing off your post).

 

[RedsHappy]

...... Many seem to come down to whether we like Horne or Fainga'a more......

Yes, but isn't the core issue behind this particular debate that there's no obvious better player to place in this important position? Neither Horne nor AF really inspire as a national 13, despite their varied qualities. Now if Tapuai hadn't done his collarbone, the discussion would have been more fruitful, yes?

 

[light]

Yes, but isn't the core issue behind this particular debate that there's no obvious better player to place in this important position? Neither Horne nor AF really inspire as a national 13, despite their varied qualities. Now if Tapuai hadn't done his collarbone, the discussion would have been more fruitful, yes?

Tapuai and McCabe are both ahead of Fainga'a and Horne IMO. We would have a bloody good chance in the Bledisloe with those two, a fully fit Cooper at 10, O'Connor and Ioane on the wings and Beale at full back. I can't see any of that happening though, particularly with Deans and his love for Barnes/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Horne

 

[Braveheart81]

Yes, but isn't the core issue behind this particular debate that there's no obvious better player to place in this important position? Neither Horne nor AF really inspire as a national 13, despite their varied qualities. Now if Tapuai hadn't done his collarbone, the discussion would have been more fruitful, yes?

Why would we pick a fragile player like Tapuai when we have players available who have remained injury free all season like Rob Horne?

 

[What2040]

funny comment BH, fragile, fragile - bloke only suffered a broken bone - IMO Taps has been fairly injury free (correct me I am wrong) whereas I thought Horne because of injuries has never displayed (consistently) the form that he showed as a Oz shoolboy - I actually saw the kid play at schools and thought he was absolutely bloody amazing - kept JOC (James O'Connor) on bench for the series.

 

[Joe Mac]

Even as a Tah's supporter, Tapuai looks to be the Wallabies long-term solution at Inside centre. He is freakishly awesome

 

[Braveheart81]

With Barnes, McCabe, Tapuai, Horne, O'Connor, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Fainga'a and in the not so distant future, Chris Feauai-Sautia, we actually have pretty good candidates for the midfield.

Getting a combination to work and stay healthy for a reasonable period of time is another matter entirely though.

 

[BDA]

The real upside to winning this game (apart from securing the series) will be that Deans can take some chances in the final game. I'd like to see Pyle get a run against a quality test side, as well as Palmer and Morahan. Maybe a start for Hooper?

 

[Richo]

funny comment BH, fragile, fragile - bloke only suffered a broken bone - IMO Taps has been fairly injury free (correct me I am wrong) whereas I thought Horne because of injuries has never displayed (consistently) the form that he showed as a Oz shoolboy - I actually saw the kid play at schools and thought he was absolutely bloody amazing - kept JOC (James O'Connor) on bench for the series.

He was kidding.

 

[kronic]

Email sent out just a short while ago regarding pre-game festivities:

Pre-game:
Where: Nixon Hotel. Across from the stadium, down the steps from Gate 3 (over the footbridge): http://goo.gl/maps/ockb
When: 4pm onwards. This all depends on whether they open on time. Platform 23, which is just down the road (towards the city), should be open earlier, if need be.
* We should have the TROUP banner on display

 

[elementfreak]

Er who is the ref?

Chris Pollock