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Wallabies vs England, Perth

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RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Given the high probability that our forwards will have major challenges v England on Saturday, you posters are so right that the back line positions will be absolutely critical to any chance of success, and it's not just 'skill factors' but 'proven track record of performance-under-big-pressure when forward play is exposed'. So the choices in the back require really good judgement. Who of our candidate backs have the best track records under the likely pressure and game scenarios?
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
Given the high probability that our forwards will have major challenges v England on Saturday, you posters are so right that the back line positions will be absolutely critical to any chance of success, and it's not just 'skill factors' but 'proven track record of performance-under-big-pressure when forward play is exposed'. So the choices in the back require really good judgement. Who of our candidate backs have the best track records under the likely pressure and game scenarios?

Erm, which Reds fullback can you possibly mean? </ironymode>
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
More quotes from Mad Robbie.

DESPITE the door yesterday being slightly opened for the return of veteran props Matt Dunning and Al Baxter to the Wallabies line-up for the first Test against England, head coach Robbie Deans is certain to firmly slam it. Wallabies assistant coach and selector Jim Williams caused a stir when he said that reinstating Dunning or Baxter to the squad to help alleviate Australia's scrum concerns before the Test at Subiaco Oval on Saturday night was a possibility.

This came after the loss of two key props, Benn Robinson and Ben Alexander, was followed by a poor scrummaging effort from the young Australian Barbarians pack against England in Perth on Tuesday night. With the powerful English pack likely to target an inexperienced Australian front row in the first Test, calls have come for Dunning or Baxter to be used as a short-term fix.

Williams helped the veterans' cause yesterday by saying that recalling Baxter or Dunning was ''something we will certainly look at''.

''No decision has been made in concrete at all yet,'' Williams said. ''We need to look closely at the game and nut out exactly where we want to go. Obviously the World Cup is in the back of our minds but there is a Test this weekend and we've got to make sure first and foremost that it's taken care of on all bases.

''With the injuries that we've got, we need to have a good look at the people available.''

Despite Williams's comments, the return of Dunning and Baxter is a remote possibility because it would involve Deans making a complete about-face. And he just doesn't do that.

Deans says he has picked the best front-rowers available in his 40-man training squad and that he is going to persevere with them. This could even mean naming Ben Daley as the Test loose-head prop when the team is announced this afternoon. This is despite Daley, who has had a slight arm complaint, not playing since the second-last round of the Super 14 and not appearing in a Test before.

Deans gave enough clues in Canberra last Sunday that Dunning and Baxter are not in his plans.

When asked in the wake of Alexander's injury if he was looking outside the squad for front-row replacements, he said: ''These guys [in the squad] have been selected on merit. So no, we don't see any need to look beyond them right now, particularly when you have Ben Daley coming back on stream. We see no need to look outside. They've earned the right through what they've done.''

Also, Deans wants to improve the depth of Australia's front-rowers, knowing that by the end of the year Robinson and Alexander will be back to bolster the team. In the meantime, he is hoping to cultivate some alternatives, even if it involves some initial pain.

Although Pek Cowan was expected to move into the Test front row, he might have played himself out of the team with a less-than-impressive performance for the Barbarians. This could easily convince Deans to try Daley.

Merit proved that Cowan and Slipper are better props than Baxter? I'm incredibly pissed off with all this. Sounds like Jim is trying to turn things around and Robbie is sticking to his guns.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Scarfman, totally agree, is this not shambolic? Would not prudence have dictated a few weeks back extending the squad just a tad with say Baxter and Dunning (or others?)? You might have seen my posts yesterday re the demystifying of Deans (at least for me). Partly this is rugby media superficiality and flattery on RD with the accolade of 'increasing the depth in Australian rugby and making discards', etc. That _may_ be true for a few backs, it is not true for our forwards as this week's Perth match so sadly displayed.

Btw, if I may, this is another reason why Dean's complacency wrt to effectively losing at Perth with those inexplicable rotations in the second half which, plus the mad choice of Cummins, cost us that game. If we had won then by the good margin we could well have achieved, the psychological pressures on England (partly via its aggressive rugby media) and related fears given the history on this soil would have been enormous and we need every single ounce of that to hold up the cause of victory on Saturday (where even before Tuesday we all knew our forwards would be highly exposed).
 
D

daz

Guest
Robbie is paid to coach and select, and to win. I couldn't care less what kind of bloke he is, or what kind of fractured, stilted incoherencies come out of his mouth. I only care that he knows what he is doing.

Come the final siren on Saturday night, we will know whether he is a genius or a fool.

Until then....
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I don't think Chris would like to be put into the front row.

Groucho asked about Reds' fullbacks..;-)....more seriously though, I do think Hynes is a generally a good pressure player and I'd vote for him somewhere in the backs for Saturday. I worry that the JO'C fans, whose support is entirely understandable, may have forgotten his journey from the applause via 2009's June internationals to the later Tris in NZ. He did not manage the AB's pressure well and fair enough given age and stage. This Saturday cannot IMO risk a single back whose track record under high pressure and 'things going wrong at the breakdown' etc has not been excellent over say the last 12 months in the big games.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
There would be a number of NZ readers giggling at our problems. They stated when Deans & Mitchell were coaching the ABs the biggest gripe was the "youth" policy and some of the older hard heads being pushed out prematurely.

Unfortunately the problem with Aus is LHP, not THP so we have a very limited list of technically adept LHPs which finishes at Robinson, the rest are chosen to our detriment in S14 for their hit ups and lateral defense.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Robbie is paid to coach and select, and to win. I couldn't care less what kind of bloke he is, or what kind of fractured, stilted incoherencies come out of his mouth. I only care that he knows what he is doing.

Come the final siren on Saturday night, we will know whether he is a genius or a fool.

Until then....

Respectfully Daz, I think we need to wait just a bit longer to assess whether RD is a genius or a fool. I recall the celebratory tones after last June's internationals (BaaBaas, Italy, etc) and the win over the Boks in Brisbane (my dear home town, and a fine game it was, though not as good as this year's Bulls v Reds :)). Come the disaster at Murrayfield and the draw with Wales and the multiple losses to the ABs, things looked very different, as they do today based upon the hard facts of RD's not-great W-L ratio after 2 full seasons. So, IMO, we will have a clear assessment of RD's value and genius level in or by December.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
Groucho asked about Reds' fullbacks..;-)....more seriously though, I do think Hynes is a generally a good pressure player and I'd vote for him somewhere in the backs for Saturday. I worry that the JO'C fans, whose support is entirely understandable, may have forgotten his journey from the applause via 2009's June internationals to the later Tris in NZ. He did not manage the AB's pressure well and fair enough given age and stage. This Saturday cannot IMO risk a single back whose track record under high pressure and 'things going wrong at the breakdown' etc has not been excellent over say the last 12 months in the big games.

JOC (James O'Connor) did struggle against the All Black but lets not forget he was bloody excellent against the Boks in Cape Town.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
I hope they go with a front row of Daley, Fainga'a and Weeks. I say not out of bias but in a logical sense of maintaining combination. Not having our strongest front row means we need to draw strength else where. Combination is now very important in my opinion. These three players may be green and not the best individually but as a unit they function well. The goal needs to be to achieve par with the Poms. If this is met, we will dish it out to them in other areas. Genuine depth is only going to improve from here on in. It is only early in the season so surely that has to be a positive.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
I can agree with you there Ruggo. And I too am a Queenslander so I may be biased. I think our best bet is to go with a combo. But I don't know if Daley is ready to play yet.
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
I don't like Al Baxter and I certainly don't think he should participate in this Test match (no prep with the squad) but Deans just HAS to call the man up. He had a decent S14 and is the best option we have.

This being said do not call up Dunning. He has had a poor S14 and just isn't up to it, perhaps he never was. Call up Fairbrother I say!

Baxter to Wallaby Squad, Fairbrother to Barbarians.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I might support the call to have the all Reds front row if both the Props weren't coming back from injury. However, it is too much to throw them to the Lions when they are only just finding their feet on the paddock again, let alone vs a traditionally strong international scrum.
 
R

rugbywhisperer

Guest
I might support the call to have the all Reds front row if both the Props weren't coming back from injury. However, it is too much to throw them to the Lions when they are only just finding their feet on the paddock again, let alone vs a traditionally strong international scrum.

Expect a nice little surprise for sat night then.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
England Team Named

ENGLAND: B Foden (Northampton); M Cueto (Sale), M Tindall (Gloucester), S Hape (Bath), C Ashton (Northampton); T Flood (Leicester), D Care (Harlequins); T Payne (Wasps), S Thompson (Leeds), D Cole (Leicester), S Shaw (Wasps), T Palmer (Stade Francais), T Croft (Leicester), L Moody (Bath, capt), N Easter (Harlequins).
 
D

daz

Guest
Come the disaster at Murrayfield and the draw with Wales and the multiple losses to the ABs, things looked very different, as they do today based upon the hard facts of RD's not-great W-L ratio after 2 full seasons.
So, IMO, we will have a clear assessment of RD's value and genius level in or by December.

Respectfully, I agree with the first part :)
I do recall JON stating during RD's first press conference that the ARU expected some silverware in the cupboards within 12 months. 24 months on, the cupboard still doesn't hold anything of real value. When you compare our basic lack of top level success in the last 2 years, RD doesn't sit too far from Martin Johnson, who has rightly or wrongly been pasted from pillar to post in the same 2 year period while RD has had a dream media run.

As for the second part, RD has had enough time to develop a competitive squad. I fully understand that we are missing some key players in the front, but even with that we really should beat England and Ireland convincingly. I don't think we will have to wait until December to hear the alarm bells should we falter in the next 2 months.
 

Lance Free

Arch Winning (36)
The Qantas Wallabies team to play England in the Cook Cup Test at Subiaco Oval, Perth, on Saturday 12 June, 6.05pm kick off [AWST] is:

15. James O’Connor (Western Force)
14. Digby Ioane (Queensland Reds)
13. Rob Horne (NSW Waratahs)
12. Matt Giteau (Brumbies)
11. Drew Mitchell (NSW Waratahs)
10. Quade Cooper (Queensland Reds)
9. Luke Burgess (NSW Waratahs)
8. Richard Brown (Western Force)
7. David Pocock (Western Force)
6. Rocky Elsom (Brumbies, captain)
5. Nathan Sharpe (Western Force)
4. Dean Mumm (NSW Waratahs)
3. Salesi Ma’afu (Brumbies)
2. Saia Fainga'a (Queensland Reds)
1. Ben Daley (Queensland Reds)

Run On Reserves:

16. Huia Edmonds (Brumbies)
17. James Slipper (Queensland Reds)
18. Mark Chisholm (Brumbies)
19. Matt Hodgson (Western Force)
20. Will Genia (Queensland Reds)
21. Berrick Barnes (NSW Waratahs)
22. Kurtley Beale (NSW Waratahs)
 
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