Wallabies v Springboks - Suncorp, Brisbane, 10th September 2016

[Joe Blow]

I reckon I might go

9. Genia
10. Cooper
11. Speight
12 Kerevi
13. TK
14. Moraghan
15. Folau


Phipps, Foley and Hodge on the bench

 

[dru]

[snip]I don't think cheika will make many changes

1.Slipper 2. Moore 3. Kepu
4. Coleman 5. Douglas
6. Fardy 8. Pocock 7. Hooper
9. Genia 10. Quade 12. Foley 13. Kerevi
11. Morohan 15. Folau 14. DHP

16. TPN 17. Sio 18. Ala'alatoa 19. Mumm 20. Mcmahon 21. Phipps 22. Hodge 23. Kuridrani

Think that is close to right with the proviso given by others that Hodge may have broken in.

Other thoughts.

I dont think Slipper gets to start over Sio if we stick to similar attack positioning. They need more punch in the heavy stuff, Sio is better at it than Slipper who lays just a touch wider (and gets more m but in slightly lighter traffic).

I dont think Simmons did anywhere near enough in NRC to claim WB standard. Is he another who just needs time off to freshen up? In the mean time who is calling? Add in a tired Moore and the Pooper and there is no outstanding reason to expect our set piece will suddenly fire against the Springboks.

Sounds like Cheika will persist with the "double 10". Many of us are thinking Quade takes over if we revert to just the one fly half. Is this correct? Foley seems another who needs time to refresh, but I'm not sure Cheika now sees Quade as our top 10.

I think there is more potential in Quade than Foley (big call to claim its there right now). I also think there is more upside in Phipps over Genia. Faster ball delivery, similar control of the pigs. I'd be telling Quade the ball is coming fast and might be sloppy - your problem. And tell Phipps he needs to be better than that to the pigs.

But too early right now. They (Phipps-Cooper) need time. For now I'd be swapping halves with at least 20, 30, to go even better. When Genia starts taking more than two sideways steps he's off.

Calling for Karevi at 12. We dont even know if he will play there at the Reds (where I like DP at 12). He may have to fight Kuridrani to out centre, choose the better defender. Kuridrani?

Finally, if we were to ditch the Pooper, everyone places Pocock over Hooper. I dont. Pocock is the better fetcher by far, but the game is changing, coach the pigs to turnover ball by rucking over/past the tackler. Pocock is on a leave of absence. Hooper stays, if Moore is still having issues, Hooper to captain, Moore VC. Pocock to the bench.

 

[Viking]

Finally, if we were to ditch the Pooper, everyone places Pocock over Hooper. I dont. Pocock is the better fetcher by far, but the game is changing, coach the pigs to turnover ball by rucking over/past the tackler. Pocock is on a leave of absence. Hooper stays, if Moore is still having issues, Hooper to captain, Moore VC. Pocock to the bench.

We don't have the forward pack right for that strategy though. That was essentially the primary tactic the Tahs used in 2014.

Kepu, Douglas, TPN not in the same form/not as effective at Test level. There is no Palu, Potegetier.

We need big strong counter-ruckers for that and we simply don't have them. Do you really expect say Simmons, Mumm, Moore, McCalman, McMahon, Fardy to be counter-rucking players like Rettalick, Kaino, Read and winning? I don't see it.

Maybe we should stick to our strengths, and pilfering is one of them. Fardy, Pocock, Hooper all good pilferers.

Not to say we shouldn't be counter-rucking, but it shouldn't be the primary tactic.

This is the issue with coaching, they keep using super xv tactics and thinking it's going to work the same at Test level.

How about building a strategy around the strengths of our current squad.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I do believe (as would most on here) that Hooper will be the No 7 for next year's tests, but I think you are probably wrong to suggest Pocock might not adapt to the changing game. He has the ideal body build of being low to the ground but with great strength to stay on his feet to allow him to be dominant on a one on one ruck over the ball.

I think it is time to consign the Pooper to history, and while he's available put Pocock at 7.

 

[dru]

We don't have the forward pack right for that strategy though. That was essentially the primary tactic the Tahs used in 2014.

Kepu, Douglas, TPN not in the same form/not as effective at Test level. There is no Palu, Potegetier.

We need big strong counter-ruckers for that and we simply don't have them. Do you really expect say Simmons, Mumm, Moore, McCalman, McMahon, Fardy to be counter-rucking players like Rettalick, Kaino, Read and winning? I don't see it.

Maybe we should stick to our strengths, and pilfering is one of them. Fardy, Pocock, Hooper all good pilferers.

Not to say we shouldn't be counter-rucking, but it shouldn't be the primary tactic.

This is the issue with coaching, they keep using super xv tactics and thinking it's going to work the same at Test level.

How about building a strategy around the strengths of our current squad.

I dont count Simmons as a natural rucker. I dont see why we cant see counter ruck skills from Douglas, Coleman and Mumm. I wouldnt expect it from Hooper, but why not Fardy (and for sake of argument) Timani.

I'm with you rhat strategy is key, and completely in building strategy around our strengths. Fetching does not seem to be one of those strengths right now, even with Pocock. But perhaps its a stretch to the counter ruck.

I suppose our biggest issue is a poor kicking game, followed by weakness in the set piece. Sort that out and the importance of turn over tactics is not quite as key as it is now.

Matching the ABs in this right now seems a pipe dream. We could start by being less rubbish. And hopefully target matchi g the Boks, who may well be working the third strategy - keep the tackled player up and sack the maul.

Hope our runners are being told to get low.

 

[dru]

I do believe (as would most on here) that Hooper will be the No 7 for next year's tests, but I think you are probably wrong to suggest Pocock might not adapt to the changing game. He has the ideal body build of being low to the ground but with great strength to stay on his feet to allow him to be dominant on a one on one ruck over the ball.

I think it is time to consign the Pooper to history, and while he's available put Pocock at 7.

This does seem to be the dominant view point at G&GR.

 

[ACT Crusader]

I dont count Simmons as a natural rucker. I dont see why we cant see counter ruck skills from Douglas, Coleman and Mumm. I wouldnt expect it from Hooper, but why not Fardy (and for sake of argument) Timani.

I'm with you rhat strategy is key, and completely in building strategy around our strengths. Fetching does not seem to be one of those strengths right now, even with Pocock. But perhaps its a stretch to the counter ruck.

I suppose our biggest issue is a poor kicking game, followed by weakness in the set piece. Sort that out and the importance of turn over tactics is not quite as key as it is now.

Matching the ABs in this right now seems a pipe dream. We could start by being less rubbish. And hopefully target matchi g the Boks, who may well be working the third strategy - keep the tackled player up and sack the maul.

Hope our runners are being told to get low.

The "fetching" is fine, in fact that's not really a problem when you look at that specifically. What I see as a massive problem is what happens after Pocock / Hooper win a turnover. OZ don't create any real advantage from it.

 

[Highlander35]

Timani is a decent pilferer. Doesn't time it as well as a Fardy or a Pocock, but if those tits are on the ball at the right time, you will not shift him.

 

[emuarse]

KOB1987 said: ↑

You've got more faith in DHP than the rest of us covering both 11 AND 15 ​

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). Fuck it

Its a good thing, Pfitzy, that you're not Cheika (at least I hope not), as AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has returned to France.

 

[emuarse]

That's only half of DHP's problem though. Many of those misses he was in a position to make the tackle but he slips off. It's not like the opposition were hitting huge gaps in the "poor defensive structure". DHP is more to blame then the structure IMO.

I think in DHP's case is simply a case of a deficiency in his game that was exposed with the added pressure of Test rugby. He is fine at super level hidden at fullback. Test level different story.

Although the poor defensive structure certainly doesn't help. Especially with the constant overlaps that arise.

Completely agree on the kicking though. Ridiculously poor tactics.

Unfortunately for DHP, is that if he is selected to play against the Sprinboks, they will have closely studied his tackling lapses against the AB's and channel his area of defence.

 

[Viking]

I dont count Simmons as a natural rucker. I dont see why we cant see counter ruck skills from Douglas, Coleman and Mumm. I wouldnt expect it from Hooper, but why not Fardy (and for sake of argument) Timani.

I'm with you rhat strategy is key, and completely in building strategy around our strengths. Fetching does not seem to be one of those strengths right now, even with Pocock. But perhaps its a stretch to the counter ruck.
.

Douglas, Coleman, the whole front row should be able to do it pretty well. The back-row is where it gets tricky.

Hooper, Poey and Fardy, with a change of mindset have the physical attributes to do it too. Although all seem to have the fetchers mindset of hitting rucks - mindset to disrupt/slow ball rather then counter-ruck.

Timani the right body but probably not the right workrate or fitness.

BUT here's the real issue. You simply cannot counter-ruck unless you win the initial contact battle. You need dominate tackles. Otherwise you are on the back-foot straight away - how on earth are you going to counter-ruck going backwards?

So who can put in a dominate tackle? Poey and Hooper probably the only ones, and based on the last 2 tests even they struggled to do it.

 

[emuarse]

Totally agree. As the old saying goes 'you cannot be a little bit pregnant'. Its all or nothing. Must be corrosive for team morale to have guys fly in then fly out.

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So AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) had an abortion? (pun intended).

 

[amirite]

Counter rucking is not often done by tight forwards because they do not often defend in the wider channels where the rucks tend to be under-resourced and thus worth a crack.

This of course has nothing to do with their ability to do so, it's just a waste of time to throw bodies against a well resourced ruck. Now, this doesn't mean they NEVER do it, it just doesn't happen a lot.

 

[Viking]

The "fetching" is fine, in fact that's not really a problem when you look at that specifically. What I see as a massive problem is what happens after Pocock / Hooper win a turnover. OZ don't create any real advantage from it.

Exactly. It's like our whole team is in shock with the turnover and just stand around and watch him before they react, happens every damn time.

 

[RedsHappy]

BTW: Has anyone noticed that the Ticketek seat map for ticket sales for this Test looks very much like the ARU is only marketing around 50-60% of Suncorp's seats? Vast tracts of this seat map have for weeks been grayed out as 'unavailable'. No way is there that many overseas or group sales being set aside.

And there's still plenty of good seats available. Seems ARU expectations of Test $ income are falling fast. I recall the 2006 Wallabies v RSA Test at Suncorp (G Holmes scored a try!) and just checked, the crowd then was 47,000. The score was famous: 46-0. (For the Suncorp v RSA Test in 2013, the crowd was 44,000, and for the July 2015 version v RSA the crowd was 38,000.)

It will be interesting to see what crowd we get on Saturday week, 10 years on.

It's always worth noting that Wallaby Test tickets are never cheap. For this Test the Platinum price is $141 ps, and Gold $121 ps.

For anyone who doubts my long-standing commitment to the code, this year alone I have purchased some 20 premium Test tickets. After using them, I've rarely felt the value for money was so poor.

 

[dru]

BUT here's the real issue. You simply cannot counter-ruck unless you win the initial contact battle. You need dominate tackles. Otherwise you are on the back-foot straight away - how on earth are you going to counter-ruck going backwards?

So who can put in a dominate tackle? Poey and Hooper probably the only ones, and based on the last 2 tests even they struggled to do it.

Hooper can. Fardy can. Douglas. Whether or not anyone is around to help the ruck is different. Maybe we need 12 and 13 trained to dive in on Hooper tackles.

It all comes back to strategy and position for me. And maybe too much juice squeezed out of then in the 4 week lead up.

 

[dru]

Counter rucking is not often done by tight forwards because they do not often defend in the wider channels where the rucks tend to be under-resourced and thus worth a crack.

This of course has nothing to do with their ability to do so, it's just a waste of time to throw bodies against a well resourced ruck. Now, this doesn't mean they NEVER do it, it just doesn't happen a lot.

Agree. Thats why I didnt mention the front row in post #225. FWIW sometimes a mobile 2 can help. Not maybe Moore or TPN. A guy like Ready though? Not that I'm saying he's ready. Dane Cole is another.

 

[Viking]

Hooper can. Fardy can. Douglas. Whether or not anyone is around to help the ruck is different. Maybe we need 12 and 13 trained to dive in on Hooper tackles.

It all comes back to strategy and position for me. And maybe too much juice squeezed out of then in the 4 week lead up.

The whole team should be trained to dive in on Hooper tackles, or too take advantage of a Pocock turnover. The 2 nearest players should automatically go for it, even if it's a winger and a fullback. That seems to be the difference between Aus and NZ. NZ players just make the right decisions from 1-15 whereas ours always have a moment of hesitation.

It's like you can see them thinking "well it's not my job to hit rucks so i'll stay in my position... oh wait maybe I should hit this one cos no-one else is around... oh yeh I will" by that time it's too late, you've already hesitated.

 

[bigmac]

The whole team should be trained to dive in on Hooper tackles, or too take advantage of a Pocock turnover. The 2 nearest players should automatically go for it, even if it's a winger and a fullback. That seems to be the difference between Aus and NZ. NZ players just make the right decisions from 1-15 whereas ours always have a moment of hesitation.

It's like you can see them thinking "well it's not my job to hit rucks so i'll stay in my position. oh wait maybe I should hit this one cos no-one else is around. oh yeh I will" by that time it's too late, you've already hesitated.

Absolutely correct. Aussies not hitting rucks like the relentless blacks. Standing back and hesitating rather than driving thru the ball with low body heoght and intent.

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[bigmac]

Agree. Thats why I didnt mention the front row in post #225. FWIW sometimes a mobile 2 can help. Not maybe Moore or TPN. A guy like Ready though? Not that I'm saying he's ready. Dane Cole is another.

As i said previously, the man is READY to play for the wallabies.

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