RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
I'll offer more tomorrow, but Cyclo you were not saying this of the players after Hong Kong as I recall it. I'm sorry, I think what I have said is an answer, or a big part of one.
Wallabies v Poms, EOYT 2010, Twickenham
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I'll offer more tomorrow, but Cyclo you were not saying this of the players after Hong Kong as I recall it. I'm sorry, I think what I have said is an answer, or a big part of one.
Groucho
Greg Davis (50)
The answer is, always, "Deans".
Sandpit Fan
Nev Cottrell (35)
Well that was ordinary viewing in a pub full of pommies I can tell you. Was watching with a saffa mate, and we were both under the pump, only he got out of jail in the end!
Still, got to give it to the soap dodgers , they turned up to play, and did it well. Some good running rugby - who would have thought they had it in them. Pretty much a continuation of last weeks 2nd half again NZ.
We were weak as piss, no other comment really suits.
Still, got to give it to the soap dodgers , they turned up to play, and did it well. Some good running rugby - who would have thought they had it in them. Pretty much a continuation of last weeks 2nd half again NZ.
We were weak as piss, no other comment really suits.
B
BRIX
Guest
Just a few points that haven't been mentioned yet, in no particular order:
- I still think Rocky's a shit captain
- Our media have a responsibilty, talking of Grand Slams 5 games before the long trip back to Sydney is not a good look. Especialy with the amount of pups we have in the squad
- Joubert raised the whistle to his gob 4-5 times when both England and the Wallabies had the ball and didn't blow for some reason. I don't know if anyone else picked that up but their was a certain amount of hesitation on his part. Its as if he was picking his penalties.
- Ashtons try was the tipping point. What happened to the attacking team having the advantage? Palmer did not release Genia and made no attempt to roll away while Flood (who was also involved in the tackle) came in from the side of the ruck.
Win lose or draw the beer will pour, but england?...FUCK!
- I still think Rocky's a shit captain
- Our media have a responsibilty, talking of Grand Slams 5 games before the long trip back to Sydney is not a good look. Especialy with the amount of pups we have in the squad
- Joubert raised the whistle to his gob 4-5 times when both England and the Wallabies had the ball and didn't blow for some reason. I don't know if anyone else picked that up but their was a certain amount of hesitation on his part. Its as if he was picking his penalties.
- Ashtons try was the tipping point. What happened to the attacking team having the advantage? Palmer did not release Genia and made no attempt to roll away while Flood (who was also involved in the tackle) came in from the side of the ruck.
Win lose or draw the beer will pour, but england?...FUCK!
B
BRIX
Guest
Few more points you grumbly gerbals didn't mention:
- Ashtons first try, Pocock gets held back by you called it - Ashton
- Penalty kick that puts us out of the test with a grim 29-13 scoreline comes about from a Tindall shepard on J'OC allowing Cueto to break the line
- Defense was too compressed because we thought England would play their vintage brand of rugby by punching it up through the flanks with pick & drives. Too many piggies caught napping on the wings which leads me to my next point - Robinson needs to get in shape. On a more positive note I thought Squeaky played magnificently. He played like a man who knew TPN was back in camp.
Smarter, older, uglier team England were
- Ashtons first try, Pocock gets held back by you called it - Ashton
- Penalty kick that puts us out of the test with a grim 29-13 scoreline comes about from a Tindall shepard on J'OC allowing Cueto to break the line
- Defense was too compressed because we thought England would play their vintage brand of rugby by punching it up through the flanks with pick & drives. Too many piggies caught napping on the wings which leads me to my next point - Robinson needs to get in shape. On a more positive note I thought Squeaky played magnificently. He played like a man who knew TPN was back in camp.
Smarter, older, uglier team England were
vidiot
John Solomon (38)
After spending an hour and a half mumbling "don't..... $%%&ing....... kick it!!!!!!" This garnered a smile.
Wow, that was painful start to finish. They were just starting to build at 46 mins when Genia pressed from 5m out and got isolated --> turnover --> Ashton away. At that point they had just started to get into possession and getting somewhere at the breakdown.
Pivotal moment, if you don't count all the times backs seemed to loose control of the ball in a way that it came in contact with their foot resulting in it being propelled into the hands of the waiting opposition.
The pack were reamed. Moore had a blinder, Rocky got into it esp 2nd half, Pocock never stops trying, Robbo tried hard but dubiously effective and Joubert punished him at the breakdown. The rest of the pack - meh. The fact the backs decided possession was over-rated only made things harder for them.
Joe Blow
John Hipwell (52)
Tackling was abysmal. Even AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) let through 1 or 2. There must have been 25-30 missed tackles?
They looked like they expected to win without the effort required being put in. Hard to watch.
On the other hand England played a great game.....who would have thought? Not our Wallabies for sure.
Squeaky was outstanding and I don't know how we saw off Wales without him last week.
They looked like they expected to win without the effort required being put in. Hard to watch.
On the other hand England played a great game.....who would have thought? Not our Wallabies for sure.
Squeaky was outstanding and I don't know how we saw off Wales without him last week.
Langthorne
Phil Hardcastle (33)
England played very well. Of course when judging the performance of the Wallabies, and their collectiv or individual potential, it should always be done against the best teams playing well. Beating a second rate team, or a top team that is off colour is no indicator of excellence.
England were pretty strong in all areas of play. They made their tackles (many dominant), were judicious in their passing (but not overly conservative), kicked for goal successfully, chased their out of hand kicking well, committed at the breakdown with aggression and accuracy, were fast to take advantage of counter attacking opportunities, used their outside men well (after drawing in the Wallabies with strong fast running close in). They were not perfect (the lineout was at times shaky, the 12 and 13 were pretty pedestrian), and they had some fortune with the ref (though not enough to be considered decisive in terms of the result).
Rather than list all of the problems with the Wallabies, I'll go with the big ones:
-a lack of general guts and aggression when faced with a top notch team that is intent on playing a direct game
-tackling
-goal kicking (still)
-the scrum
-tactics, especially when dealing with a well organised defence
I don't see these problems as impossible to rectify in terms of the team performance as a whole, but it may mean that certain players need to be rested whilst other get a chance to improve the situation.
Guts are very hard to coach, and no amount of pushing from behind of opposition players who are on the ground will convince me otherwise. This is an area that Deans can only really deal with by bringing in different players. There are quite a few guys who did put in pretty gutsy performances, but those who didn't need to be dealt with.
Tackling is not really all that difficult, but a willingness to tackle (like guts) is hard to teach. I am on board with the idea that someone can be so good in other areas that their poor defence can be overlooked - but they actually have to perform in those 'other areas' for it to hold true. Probably the best option is to simply improve the defence (by better application or replacement)
The goal kicking was not great, but I would persevere with JO'C at this stage. He had a poor day, but there were a few shots today that I don't think should have been taken anyway. Barnes, Cooper, Beale, Giteau are not really much better.
The scrum is an ongoing issue which needs attention at all levels in Australian rugby (but also in terms of the world wide running of the game - the other matches had thier fair share of sloppy and dangerous scrumming, and strange refereeing too). In the short term the Wallaby team could be improved by giving preference to the best scrummagers and players who are fit (not injured, under done, a development project, actually pretty good in the loose etc).
The tactic to kick for low % penalties when the Wallabies were on the boil early on was not a good one. It tended to relieve pressure on the Poms, and didn't get us any points. We are much better running at them with ball in hand too.
The tactic to kick away possession, which was borne out of England's solid defence (and an unwillingness to risk physical impacts) did not generally help. Again, when the default position is to keep the ball and run into the defensive line with aggression at pace (see KB (Kurtley Beale)), then the use of a kick can be very effective (see KB (Kurtley Beale)).
Played well: KB (Kurtley Beale), Moore, Elsom, Sharpe, Pocock
Played badly: Cooper (VERY), McCalman, Robinson, Brown, Giteau
Others were up and down or just plain average.
We are missing three guys (Mortlock, TPN, Palu) who provide something vital to the team - they have the ability to make the opposition acutely aware of their mortality. Big mean guys who can put on a hit that just stops the opposition dead. I don't mean a tackle that allows a turnover. I mean a big mother fucken hit that primarily asserts physical domination.
England were pretty strong in all areas of play. They made their tackles (many dominant), were judicious in their passing (but not overly conservative), kicked for goal successfully, chased their out of hand kicking well, committed at the breakdown with aggression and accuracy, were fast to take advantage of counter attacking opportunities, used their outside men well (after drawing in the Wallabies with strong fast running close in). They were not perfect (the lineout was at times shaky, the 12 and 13 were pretty pedestrian), and they had some fortune with the ref (though not enough to be considered decisive in terms of the result).
Rather than list all of the problems with the Wallabies, I'll go with the big ones:
-a lack of general guts and aggression when faced with a top notch team that is intent on playing a direct game
-tackling
-goal kicking (still)
-the scrum
-tactics, especially when dealing with a well organised defence
I don't see these problems as impossible to rectify in terms of the team performance as a whole, but it may mean that certain players need to be rested whilst other get a chance to improve the situation.
Guts are very hard to coach, and no amount of pushing from behind of opposition players who are on the ground will convince me otherwise. This is an area that Deans can only really deal with by bringing in different players. There are quite a few guys who did put in pretty gutsy performances, but those who didn't need to be dealt with.
Tackling is not really all that difficult, but a willingness to tackle (like guts) is hard to teach. I am on board with the idea that someone can be so good in other areas that their poor defence can be overlooked - but they actually have to perform in those 'other areas' for it to hold true. Probably the best option is to simply improve the defence (by better application or replacement)
The goal kicking was not great, but I would persevere with JO'C at this stage. He had a poor day, but there were a few shots today that I don't think should have been taken anyway. Barnes, Cooper, Beale, Giteau are not really much better.
The scrum is an ongoing issue which needs attention at all levels in Australian rugby (but also in terms of the world wide running of the game - the other matches had thier fair share of sloppy and dangerous scrumming, and strange refereeing too). In the short term the Wallaby team could be improved by giving preference to the best scrummagers and players who are fit (not injured, under done, a development project, actually pretty good in the loose etc).
The tactic to kick for low % penalties when the Wallabies were on the boil early on was not a good one. It tended to relieve pressure on the Poms, and didn't get us any points. We are much better running at them with ball in hand too.
The tactic to kick away possession, which was borne out of England's solid defence (and an unwillingness to risk physical impacts) did not generally help. Again, when the default position is to keep the ball and run into the defensive line with aggression at pace (see KB (Kurtley Beale)), then the use of a kick can be very effective (see KB (Kurtley Beale)).
Played well: KB (Kurtley Beale), Moore, Elsom, Sharpe, Pocock
Played badly: Cooper (VERY), McCalman, Robinson, Brown, Giteau
Others were up and down or just plain average.
We are missing three guys (Mortlock, TPN, Palu) who provide something vital to the team - they have the ability to make the opposition acutely aware of their mortality. Big mean guys who can put on a hit that just stops the opposition dead. I don't mean a tackle that allows a turnover. I mean a big mother fucken hit that primarily asserts physical domination.
I was also very unhappy with Genia. The spark is certainly gone. The pivotal moment of the game was when he lumbered into contact on the England line with players screaming outside of him. We lose the ball, England score a length of the field try. Game over.
We were pretty flat all game, we really missed Palu and Polota-Nau. It reminded me a lot of Melbourne in that we missed SO many first up tackles, would love to see the stats. It really was abysmal. Cooper would lead the count but he is certainly not alone.
O'Connor's kicking was average but Rocky shouldn't be pointing to the posts when we are 45 out and 5 in from touch. Johnny Wilkinson struggles with those ones, let alone O'Connor in front of a packed house. We should back ourselves and have a crack, especailly early in the game.
We were pretty flat all game, we really missed Palu and Polota-Nau. It reminded me a lot of Melbourne in that we missed SO many first up tackles, would love to see the stats. It really was abysmal. Cooper would lead the count but he is certainly not alone.
O'Connor's kicking was average but Rocky shouldn't be pointing to the posts when we are 45 out and 5 in from touch. Johnny Wilkinson struggles with those ones, let alone O'Connor in front of a packed house. We should back ourselves and have a crack, especailly early in the game.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
WHo is responsible for selecting them. I hate to say I told you so, but ........
I said that Alexander was not fully fit, I said Fatcat wasn't, I questioned selections in other area because the team is not balanced. Deans has one record all his own totally unchallenged he is the worst coach in Pro Oz Rugby history.
vidiot
John Solomon (38)
grievous
Johnnie Wallace (23)
As a supporter, I just dont know what to make of the Wallabies anymore. Potential WC winners?, quiet acheivers without achieving much, going to peak at the right time(keep us guessing) or pretenders.
But today they got beat at their own game and were shown up on so many levels. I think supporters are being conned, too used to selections because we have no one else.
Deans could take us to a final but we just dont have the players, this was evident watching the ABs pummel Scotland after without a host of players. A team that beat us.We cant put any side away anymore. Own worst enemy.
Our only chance now is Deans gets ruthless, cut the Giteau's, Chisloms', Faingaas' as well as half the B team taken along. Maybe dropping them will get them back in the long term.
What we are doing is not working. Its year to go.
But today they got beat at their own game and were shown up on so many levels. I think supporters are being conned, too used to selections because we have no one else.
Deans could take us to a final but we just dont have the players, this was evident watching the ABs pummel Scotland after without a host of players. A team that beat us.We cant put any side away anymore. Own worst enemy.
Our only chance now is Deans gets ruthless, cut the Giteau's, Chisloms', Faingaas' as well as half the B team taken along. Maybe dropping them will get them back in the long term.
What we are doing is not working. Its year to go.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Sure you do
I take no pleasure in watching the Wallabies getting left behind. If it wasn't for three players in this game it would have been much worse - Beale, Pocock and Sharpe. The fact is that although there will be recriminations and hand wringing from many here a few of us have been saying these problems have been lurking all year and last, and were apparent for those who took the time to look. I do feel a little smug towards those who personally criticised me for pointing out the deficiencies that are becoming more apparent now, but not about the team.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Sorry grevious - that is just an excuse. The same one that was used when the front row was out, plus the other injured. Fact is that the selection of players out of position, and players who are fourth or fifth best in there position in the S14 mean that the Wallabies are indeed the sum of it parts, fourth or fifth best. The crowing about being ranked 2nd in the world at least should be put to rest now.
Scarfman
Knitter of the Scarf
Groucho - in particular - but others too - don't blame RH or Gnostic when they get proven right.
I haven't seen the game yet, so I can't say for sure, but my opinion remains that Australia has good cattle which is being bizarrely selected and bizarrely coached. I've noticed how much a lot of you are falling in behind Robbie's selections, even though they are miles away from the G&GR teams selected at the start of the year. Even looking at the Rate Our Props thread is enough to make one's eyebrows dance over the forehead, and the jaw to hang slackly.
Tell you what - I'll watch the game and start a Deans-Haters Positive Suggestions thread, where selections and game plan are laid out. Gnostic, RedsHappy, Reddy!, etc, are you with me?
I haven't seen the game yet, so I can't say for sure, but my opinion remains that Australia has good cattle which is being bizarrely selected and bizarrely coached. I've noticed how much a lot of you are falling in behind Robbie's selections, even though they are miles away from the G&GR teams selected at the start of the year. Even looking at the Rate Our Props thread is enough to make one's eyebrows dance over the forehead, and the jaw to hang slackly.
Tell you what - I'll watch the game and start a Deans-Haters Positive Suggestions thread, where selections and game plan are laid out. Gnostic, RedsHappy, Reddy!, etc, are you with me?
Scotty
David Codey (61)
While still very poor, I thought QC (Quade Cooper) actually made some improvment in his tackling technique this week, particularly in the first half. He actually put his head down and tried to tackle around the hips rather than around the shoulders. Wasn't a great outcome, but at least if he does this he can trip the ball carier as he tries to run over him.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Deans has a dilemma.
It is unlikely we can win the RWC without QC (Quade Cooper).
But it is impossible to win it with him.
replacements are not jumping out of the ground.
KB (Kurtley Beale)'s career best form is as a result of moving him away from 10, he thrives on the additional time & space he gets at 15.
Gits, the formguide would suggest otherwise.
Berrick, is solid but lacks flair at test level.
If he wants to WIN, he will drop QC (Quade Cooper) for a replacement that no one really wants. If he wants to SETTLE for a quarter or semi berth he will keep QC (Quade Cooper).
This is definately a case of taking one step back, to be able to make 2 steps forward.
It is unlikely we can win the RWC without QC (Quade Cooper).
But it is impossible to win it with him.
replacements are not jumping out of the ground.
KB (Kurtley Beale)'s career best form is as a result of moving him away from 10, he thrives on the additional time & space he gets at 15.
Gits, the formguide would suggest otherwise.
Berrick, is solid but lacks flair at test level.
If he wants to WIN, he will drop QC (Quade Cooper) for a replacement that no one really wants. If he wants to SETTLE for a quarter or semi berth he will keep QC (Quade Cooper).
This is definately a case of taking one step back, to be able to make 2 steps forward.
Scotty
David Codey (61)
Can someone please tell me why Elsom takes the goal kick when it is on or past JOC (James O'Connor)'s range (the first two), but then kicks for the line when it is within his range (the third penalty). This is the second game where this has happened recently, but the difference to the other one was this time we didn't score a try (like QC (Quade Cooper) vs NZ).
It is beyond comprehension why we didn't kick for the line a the first penalty and try and put some pressure on the England defence, rather than taking a 30/70 kick.
I also noted what another said above about the runaway England try. I would suggest that 8 times out of 10 that would have been a penalty to the attacking team (oz) with a possible yellow card vs one of the defenders. I mean there were at least 2-3 england defenders playing the ball on the ground. This was a real turning point in the game, and while we didn't deserve to win, we still could have with what would have been a 10 point turnaround here.
It is beyond comprehension why we didn't kick for the line a the first penalty and try and put some pressure on the England defence, rather than taking a 30/70 kick.
I also noted what another said above about the runaway England try. I would suggest that 8 times out of 10 that would have been a penalty to the attacking team (oz) with a possible yellow card vs one of the defenders. I mean there were at least 2-3 england defenders playing the ball on the ground. This was a real turning point in the game, and while we didn't deserve to win, we still could have with what would have been a 10 point turnaround here.
Scotty
David Codey (61)
With QC (Quade Cooper) at 10 we can afford to play a couple of big centres, even if they aren't ball players. Just look at how Fa'ainga and Chambers worked outside of him for Qld. The wings still got plenty of ball.
I think we should be looking at the likes of Chambers, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Inman, Fa'ainga etc pairing up in the centres.
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