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Wallabies v Poms, EOYT 2010, Twickenham

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Richard D. James

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Agree Scotty. Especially when it's your brand new, 20 year old kicker in front of 80,00 at twickers and one of our greatest strengths is first phase moves from the set piece.

Couldn't have done much for JOC (James O'Connor)'s confidence.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Groucho - in particular - but others too - don't blame RH or Gnostic when they get proven right.

I haven't seen the game yet, so I can't say for sure, but my opinion remains that Australia has good cattle which is being bizarrely selected and bizarrely coached. I've noticed how much a lot of you are falling in behind Robbie's selections, even though they are miles away from the G&GR teams selected at the start of the year. Even looking at the Rate Our Props thread is enough to make one's eyebrows dance over the forehead, and the jaw to hang slackly.

Tell you what - I'll watch the game and start a Deans-Haters Positive Suggestions thread, where selections and game plan are laid out. Gnostic, RedsHappy, Reddy!, etc, are you with me?

I think I print this out and Frame it Scarfie. ;)

I don't hate Deans Sacrfie that would be a personal attack type thing, what I have said consistantly is they he hasn't been subjected to sufficiently rigorous scrutiny by the media or other stake holders in Oz Rugby. Thus he hasn't made improvements in areas where he is clearly deficient. He has made huge improvements in the basic skill levels of many players and has change the play to a much more attacking style (when they actually have tactics). But that is it. There is no other aspect of Oz play under his tutelage that has improved, and in many areas it has regressed. In a way it could be said that the media etc have failed Deans by not giving him that which he needs to improve.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
While still very poor, I thought QC (Quade Cooper) actually made some improvment in his tackling technique this week, particularly in the first half. He actually put his head down and tried to tackle around the hips rather than around the shoulders. Wasn't a great outcome, but at least if he does this he can trip the ball carier as he tries to run over him.

Terrific, so he goes from a turnstile to occasional speed bump.
I no longer care about his technique. his results are poor. he is not test standard.
If you can't tackle, then you can't play test football, not even if you gob off in the press about being tough,aggresive & ruthless.
 

grievous

Johnnie Wallace (23)
I think I print this out and Frame it Scarfie. ;)

I don't hate Deans Sacrfie that would be a personal attack type thing, what I have said consistantly is they he hasn't been subjected to sufficiently rigorous scrutiny by the media or other stake holders in Oz Rugby. Thus he hasn't made improvements in areas where he is clearly deficient. He has made huge improvements in the basic skill levels of many players and has change the play to a much more attacking style (when they actually have tactics). But that is it. There is no other aspect of Oz play under his tutelage that has improved, and in many areas it has regressed. In a way it could be said that the media etc have failed Deans by not giving him that which he needs to improve.

I hear calls from people like Alan Jones about what is wrong with modern Oz rugby. Should these people be lsitened too more closly or are they just remenising of the ol days?
 
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baldingwingforward

Guest
Australias problems are not in the backline... Their forwards are soft as @hit! If Pocock wasn't playing if would have been even worse! This was no different to what happened to them in the '07 1/4 final. There are too many ball watchers in the forwards. The aussie view of forward play is all about how many carries and offloads the props make! what about scrummaging first? The Super 14 doesn't necessarily help the situation as there is such a premium put on open running rugby for entertainments sake. First and foremost your forwards have to win the physical confrontation. England won just about every contact situation yesterday. The only time they didnt was when Pocock made the tackle (and sometimes Moore or Elsom).

Sharpe stands out in the backline looking to carry the ball. Here's an idea Sharpey... How about getting in there and hitting some rucks HARD, and dominating a few opposition forwards. Everyone goes on about how good Sharpe is, he's a myth!

Stephen Moore was good, Elsom ok but makes some silly decisions, Pocock outstanding. Get rid of the rest of the pretenders.

Hard to blame your back line when they are getting the ball going backwards all game. Everyone gives Deans a hard time... TBH Im not sure Jim Williams is the smartest operator (If you have ever spoken to him you will know what i mean!!). Piss off all of the fancy phase plays and just get back to old school training and let the forwards bash the shit out of each other. Once they have proved themselves to be proficient at that basic core skill - then you might let them stand one pass wide of the ruck, but not on the wing Sharpey!!

Simple solution - harden the #uck up!!
 

Joe Blow

John Hipwell (52)
Take nothing away from England. It was a very balanced and powerful display that will have all the top sides worrying about them for the next 10 months.
There has been some disagreement here on the selection of the front row, second row and IC over the past 6 months but that starting side was pretty close to what just about any person in the know would have selected.
Possible changes could have been Van in for Chis, Barnes in for Gits and that's about it.
These blokes need to put everything on the line every time they pull on the gold jersey.

Barnes must get the nod ahead of Giteau now surely. QC (Quade Cooper) has placed question marks on his own selection and our front row (squeaky aside) has some issues.
Palu, Vickerman and Horwill now become very important men for the Wallabies RWC assault.
 
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Red Rooster

Guest
BY my calculations we are now ranked third in the world - please adjust your love/hate comments to this point
 

vidiot

John Solomon (38)
We didn't lose last night, we were well beaten by side playing bloody good rugby

Our defence just wasn't up to it, whilst their defence simply stopped us getting any momentum and no time

The fact we couldn't get in the game is 90% this. When we were pressing early in the second stanza I thought we might be able to knock their confidence and enthusiasm to start getting somewhere, but then there was that turnover and length of the field try. That fired them up again and off they went.

There has been a lot written about gamesmanship here. I mean both:

1) subtle indiscretions that escape sanction and help a side at crucial moments and
2) understanding the ebb and flow of a game and intervening in the right way to control it if you're on top and get back in it if you're not.

We're bad at both. The ABs are very good at it. England seemed pretty good at it last night. Are our players getting enough competitive rugby to learn this? We have club rugby then super 14, and my impression without doing any math is that we are behind the opposition here, and gamesmanship/game management is one of the costs.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I hear calls from people like Alan Jones about what is wrong with modern Oz rugby. Should these people be lsitened too more closly or are they just remenising of the ol days?

Everyone (or most) have something of value to add and Jones does know a fair bit about the game, even if I think he has some strange priorities and looks for short term gains.
 
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Train Without a Station

Guest
I think some of these comments about Robinson being poor are a bit rough. I think you will find that the entire pack was poor, seagulling and that Robinson actually put more pressure on the breakdown than Pocock, it just looked like Pocock was everywhere because he had headgear on. Chisholm and Moore were probably the pick of the forwards, Chis actually having a couple of uncharacteristic good runs (broke the line 3 times I think) and made a fair number of tackles all over the park.

As for the packs, well when are getting back foot ball with no room, what are you going to do with the pill?
 
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BRIX

Guest
Can someone who's re-watched the match read my comments on page 13 and enlighten me as to whether I am delusional or not?

Thanks in advance
 

Reddy!

Bob Davidson (42)
That was a pretty depressing game last night. 1 step forward, 10 steps back. 2010 is starting to remind me of 2009 with regards to the backline. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was the standout player in 2009 when everyone fell to pieces, and this year it seems to be Beale. In the forwards, we have definitely gone backwards since 2009. This time a year ago we had one of the best scrums in the world. Now we are a joke. I honestly think some of it has to do with personal. Two of the biggest flakes of all time are directing this team around the park in Giteau and Cooper - that is half the problem right there.

The other half is Deans was out coached tonight, the second time this year by an English team and obviously not the first time as Wallaby coach (see NZ 10, Aus 2). I'm not sure what to suggest in order for the Wallabies to improve as things will probably keep going along as they have been.
 
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BackStalls

Guest
Well played England. They showed remarkable intensity in all areas of the game and seized their opportunities. When I woke up this morning and saw the score my guts clenched and I had to steel myself for a good hour before having the fortitude to watch the game. After watching, however, I'm not as disappointed as I expected to be.

The Wallabies will have learned a LOT from this game. Cooper and Rocky in particular will have learned a lot about game management. This was the crux for me. It seemed the Wallabies were using this game as a test run for the World Cup, hence the field position and conservative approach to penalties. However it's now obvious this strategy cancelled out the one true advantage they have over England - their wide passing game (and to a certain extent, attacking off their lineout). Not profiting from this strategy on the scoreboard, and conceding points early, they were then lured into an uncomfortable position, pushing too hard for scoring opportunities, and making high risk plays (Quade, please put away that cross field kick pass to JOC (James O'Connor)!)

In their last few games the Wallabies have started sharp against all opposition. They must capitalise on this ability to start fast (they looked the better team in the opening 10 mins again today) and put the pressure on, before attempting the field position game. The problems, apart from this, are not new. Nothing that went wrong today has not gone wrong before, and recently. The difference in previous games was that the Wallabies were able to get themselves in front early and ask questions of the opposition's defence. This either paid off immediately or put questions that paid off later.

They have learned that their wide game is more profitable against England than slippery backs against their big midfield. They have learned that it's no use having weapons in their pocket if they don't use them. They have learned that under the new rule interpretations, attack is the best form of defence. And they have learned that they must work harder to overcome their deficiencies in defence, in the scrum, in their kicking game, in their goal kicking, and in their option-taking.

If the Wallabies had a second crack next week at England, I'd back them to learn enough lessons to win. I think they are good enough. And I don't really buy into the mental advantage bit with regards to England. England were, and remain, a threat. A win would not have changed that much. The Wallabies left a lot in their pockets today. If they had used all of it and lost we should feel a lot more concerned. The Wallabies have the nucleus of a very good team. This was the case after Bloem, after Sydney, after HK, and it is still true today. If they keep their feet on the ground (and a loss certainly does that much), learn their lessons and continue improving at the rate they have been they'll be right.

As an aside, professionalism was always going to ensure skill and talent levels right around the world caught up to one another. World domination by any one team is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Expecting the Wallabies to never lose a game is unrealistic. Most of the matches this year have been dogfights between equally talented teams and this is the way of the future. I for one am celebrating this and suggest we do not dismiss the Wallabies as a high quality team, because they lost a game to another high quality team.

I am interested in England's rush defence. What do others think of it's advantages and disadvantages. Are there other ways to counter it than the short kick or the inside ball? Is it the way forward for other teams do you think? England weren't penalised for off side much - how did they manage to avoid that?
 

tragic

John Solomon (38)
Interesting to see al the doomsdayers come out calling for heads again after a loss.
England played very well, Australia very poorly. Despite this England only managed to score twice which against Australia would usually not be enough. One of these tries was a length of the field effort against 14men aided by a poor refereeing decision. Despite their apparent dominance in the end it was still two tries apiece.
Australia must find a solution to its goal kicking woes if it is to stay in these games when it is having a bad night. How many times have we seen the All Blacks have an off night but still come away with the win courtesy of the boot of Carter and then a 10min period of getting their act together.
The Australian scrum was better this week and the penalties were a lottery. If it wasn't for memories of last week it wouldn't even be rating a mention. We defended the maul well - none of Englands usual marching 20m. We turned over less ball at the breakdown than last week. We even had periods of dominance in the forwards - had genia not isolated himself and turned the ball over, the forwards were on their way over the line. Instead a 10 point turnaround. Moore, Sharpie, Chis, and BamBam all played well. Robinson can feel hardly done by with the criticism he has received.
Cooper was his usual human turnstile but this is no different to usual and we either need to accept that or find an alternative. It is unlikely he will improve.
Unfortunately England kept getting kickable penalties (some warranted, some dubious) keeping them out of reach and we resorted to catchup rugby which turned into sevens rugby courtesy of our young bloods. Once again drawing the inevitable comparison, the men in Black would have just grafted away, taken their kicks, and waited for the opportunity to assert dominance.
England were the better side on the night. One of those games like the AB tri-nations one, which got away from us early. I have no doubt we have the players - just need to sort out our kicking woes, improve our decision making, and play smarter. Our time will come, although unfortunately I think we are set to reach our peak a year too late in 2012.
 

Reddy!

Bob Davidson (42)
Learnt alot? I not sure what the capacity of this team is to learn anything. They obviously didn't learn much earlier in the year when England beat us at home. Deans certainly didn't.
 
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Richard D. James

Guest
Learnt alot? I not sure what the capacity of this team is to learn anything. They obviously didn't learn much earlier in the year when England beat us at home. Deans certainly didn't.

We all knew the rush defence was coming yet we still had no plan to counter it apart from those bloody chip kicks...

Was that really our plan in one of the most important tests these young guys have played? Chip kicks?
 

Jethro Tah

Bob Loudon (25)
well done to England. We were completely blown off the park.

The intensity, spoken of in their match v the kiwis last week, was at a fair few levels above us.

Benny Robinson needs a rest, for the rest of the tour. He has no physical presence on the game at the moment.

McCalman is gallant but proving, like Richard Brown, that he doesn't have the physicality for test footy at the moment.

Thought it was Chis's best game, but that says something.

Stephen Moore was superb I thought. Aussie MOM.

Cooper dismal. Very disappointing.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) anonymous.

KB (Kurtley Beale) just keeps his rich vein of form flowing.

Burgo looks like he's dosed up on red cordial at half time, but was an important spark.

What he said. And what fatprop said below - we didn't lose the game, they won it. I reckon the Poms would have given the ABs a real run for their money with this effort. Our defense was crap and our composure was sorely missing at times but gee whiz the Poms were on song. Had they played with a couple of quicker centres then the score would have been worse. The Wobs will be the better for this loss. Onwards and upwards.
 
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BackStalls

Guest
We all knew the rush defence was coming yet we still had no plan to counter it apart from those bloody chip kicks...

Was that really our plan in one of the most important tests these young guys have played? Chip kicks?

So I'm wondering what other counter measures could be taken? The ABs didn't have an answer either. They used the short kick (again with no success) - what's the answer?
 
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