Wallabies v Poms, EOYT 2010, Twickenham

[Reddy!]

So Elsom is a bad captain? Or is it that we don't have a proper captain so don't bother trying to make the right decisions.

 

[louie]

coach for mine. We're a young side that can score 5 pointers, lets run teams of the park.

 

[cyclopath]

Okay here we go:

South Africa - Steyn x 2
New Zealand - Carter, Weepu
England - Flood, Wilkinson
Wales - Stephen Jones, James Hook
Ireland - O'Gara
Scotland - Parks
France - le Kicker

This is test match rugby and you are saying we don't need somebody who can kick goals?

I'll use small words, Reddy!.
No. I do not say we do not need a goal-kicker. Where did I say that? In Reddy!'s parallel reality? I said we don't have one that can. Not many of those do it from long distance regularly either, Steyns aside.

 

[Richard D. James]

So I'm wondering what other counter measures could be taken? The ABs didn't have an answer either. They used the short kick (again with no success) - what's the answer?

Obviously there's no definitive answer, although in the second half we started to use better tactics. The two "backlines" ploy worked ok, where the forwards form one backline and as the ball is passed from the ruck Cooper and the second "backline" sweep around out wide and the ball is moved through the forwards then out to Cooper (the same way Cooper scored his try in HK). This ties up the opposition loosies (Moody in particular as he has flown out of the line and shutdown Cooper in the last two tests) and allows Cooper and the outside backs to challenge the defensive line out wide at pace.

Of course there are many other tactics, as has been mentioned, holding on to the ball and making hard yards through the fringes is always worthwhile.

 

[Red Rooster]

Interesting to see al the doomsdayers come out calling for heads again after a loss.
England played very well, Australia very poorly. Despite this England only managed to score twice which against Australia would usually not be enough. One of these tries was a length of the field effort against 14men aided by a poor refereeing decision. Despite their apparent dominance in the end it was still two tries apiece.
Australia must find a solution to its goal kicking woes if it is to stay in these games when it is having a bad night. How many times have we seen the All Blacks have an off night but still come away with the win courtesy of the boot of Carter and then a 10min period of getting their act together.
The Australian scrum was better this week and the penalties were a lottery. If it wasn't for memories of last week it wouldn't even be rating a mention. We defended the maul well - none of Englands usual marching 20m. We turned over less ball at the breakdown than last week. We even had periods of dominance in the forwards - had genia not isolated himself and turned the ball over, the forwards were on their way over the line. Instead a 10 point turnaround. Moore, Sharpie, Chis, and BamBam all played well. Robinson can feel hardly done by with the criticism he has received.
Cooper was his usual human turnstile but this is no different to usual and we either need to accept that or find an alternative. It is unlikely he will improve.
Unfortunately England kept getting kickable penalties (some warranted, some dubious) keeping them out of reach and we resorted to catchup rugby which turned into sevens rugby courtesy of our young bloods. Once again drawing the inevitable comparison, the men in Black would have just grafted away, taken their kicks, and waited for the opportunity to assert dominance.
England were the better side on the night. One of those games like the AB tri-nations one, which got away from us early. I have no doubt we have the players - just need to sort out our kicking woes, improve our decision making, and play smarter. Our time will come, although unfortunately I think we are set to reach our peak a year too late in 2012.

They would have scored again if Gits had not been so cynical, The Wallabies scored on the back of Beale's individual brilliance (one try at least) so this is a moot point, What about the loss in Australia. I dont know how you determine that the scrum got better when there were very little of them and 95% went to FK or Penalty

You are the first to offer up the excuse of peaking now a year too late - Its all about this RWC, the coach said so, so there is nothing relevant post 2011

 

[Red Rooster]

Joubert penalised Robinson twice for not releasing the tackled player, but on both occasions Robinson had begun stripping the ball away while the tackle was being made and he stayed on his feet as the ball carrier went to ground. Grinds my gears because they should've been penalties to Aus for England not releasing.

Scrum.com's headline is right. We really were swept aside by England today.

While technically Robinson did not go to ground and become the tackler in law - the interpretation the refs play is that he still must release the tackled player before contesting the ball. Its split second stuff but it needs to be this way otherwise its impossible for the refs to see - It might seem bad but this clarity actually has made the game for more attacking orientated

 

[RugbyFuture]

i think it was let known my opinion of everyone in the live chat.

our central defence is horrible, you can have centres who are horrible at defence if you have good forwards (tight five) whi support and compensate for it, we don't

our attacking ability was completely hindered by their offside defence, and our inability to use footwork on soft ground.

Jouberts a South African....

anything in close to black obviously can't be seen by the ref when they're offside, or holding onto the ball on the ground.

you could see all we needed to do is replicate that back play which we had before the second try. Phased and continuous back play, skip the first line of defence and build momentum till we reach the line. This didn't happen. My only hopes are the fact that half of our forwards are going to be replaced by next year.

 

[tragic]

There were some average ref decisions by the length of the field try wasn't one of them

hmmmm... think you better watch the replay again. As others on this forum have said the tackle was completed by flood and palmer, and neither released and allowed genia to play the ball. Palmer actually deliberately lies all over him and gets in the way of the wallaby support players to further isolate him. The steal was only effected because of this. Equally as cynical as Giteaus try stopping action and would have been a penalty in the 3N. I agree however genias' decision making was poor and he should never have put us in that position after the good work by the forwards to get us there.

 

[Groucho]

Groucho - in particular - but others too - don't blame RH or Gnostic when they get proven right.

I haven't seen the game yet, so I can't say for sure, but my opinion remains that Australia has good cattle which is being bizarrely selected and bizarrely coached. I've noticed how much a lot of you are falling in behind Robbie's selections, even though they are miles away from the G&GR teams selected at the start of the year. Even looking at the Rate Our Props thread is enough to make one's eyebrows dance over the forehead, and the jaw to hang slackly.

Tell you what - I'll watch the game and start a Deans-Haters Positive Suggestions thread, where selections and game plan are laid out. Gnostic, RedsHappy, Reddy!, etc, are you with me?

Scarfman, I just don't agree they were proven right.

The coach didn't miss the kicks, or the crucial tackles, or take any ill-advised tap penalties then get turned over. The players need to take responsibility for these things.

The coach didn't play out of his skin for England. England must bear the responsibility for that.

It seems that when we win, it is the players, and when we lose, it is the coach. I agree with Eddie Jones' assessment that the coach has about the same effect as a top player on the performance of a team. When we win, it is mainly the players' doing, and when we lose, it is also mainly the players' doing.

 

[tragic]

I dont know how you determine that the scrum got better when there were very little of them and 95% went to FK or Penalty

In the few scrums we saw I didn't see any real dominant hits or wheels from England as with Wales, and didn't see the front row splintered. Just the usual collapses and penalty lottery. Forgive me if I am a little cynical about collapses. I have seen the wallabies opponents do it deliberately too many times when they think the chances are the penalty will go their way due to perceived dominance.
As for the year too late "excuse" - just an observation about the amount of time it takes a young team with loads of talent get their act together and develop a culture that they can dominate the worlds leading teams. I would like to be wrong but I have seen a wallabies team this year with a lot of potential lose games because of poor decision making or poor composure. Unfortunately I think next year will be too soon for that to change. Having said that I saw nothing this weekend to make me think that England will be the major threat.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Agree with Groucho. Players win and lose the game. Coaches and Captains provide the leadership and decision making related to the game plan during the game.

Not much evidence of the required leadership last night.

Poor execution of a flawed and unmodified game plan was our downfall. Players, and leadership must accept responsibility equally.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

A touch of groundhog day once again with England. They up the physical stakes and we just can't go with them. Clearly our game plan and execution needs to change against them, because what we are doing right now just isn't working. However, that doesn't mean that in the immediate aftermath that a bunch of short sighted emotional decisions get made. You can't just sack all the players and the coaches, that won't fix anything. England were very good last night and took their chances with both hands. Hard to argue with that and much credit to them.

In the wash up of this game and subsequently of the tour, there will be some hard decisions that will have to be made about some players in the squad. We are 10 months out from the RWC and have by my reckoning 6 tests to settle the squad and the tactics. There are some guys playing for their international futures right now and the question for Deans is whether or not he tells the players concerned. If I look across the 22 from last night, I would say that Giteau, Chisolm, McCalman, Genia(*), Brown, Mumm and Robinson(*) are in danger of missing out next year if they don't massively lift their game in the next couple of weeks. Now is the time to be ruthless and pick the squad we think can go the distance in the RWC. I will be interested to see how the boys respond in the next couple of weeks though. It will say a lot about their character. If we don't give a better account of ourselves, then I will come to the conclusion that we really are soft and have no chance next year.

(*) They are class these guys, but their place is not guaranteed and they need to know that.

 

[fatprop]

So I'm wondering what other counter measures could be taken? The ABs didn't have an answer either. They used the short kick (again with no success) - what's the answer?

Inside passes, two tier attacking lines, chips, we tried them all

 

[Ruggo]

We were beaten at our own game, simple as that. We looked like we were prepaired for a traditional conservative England side and when they came out and threw our own game at us, we did not have a clue how to handle it. Actually, we just got exposed as being very one dimensional. Chuck a bit of blame at the coach for getting the game plan wrong but he larger proportion of the blame has to rest with the players. They had the power to change things out on the field and they didn't.

Congratulations England, very well played.

 

[tragic]

Agree with Groucho. Players win and lose the game. Coaches and Captains provide the leadership and decision making related to the game plan during the game.

Not much evidence of the required leadership last night.

Poor execution of a flawed and unmodified game plan was our downfall. Players, and leadership must accept responsibility equally.

Cant agree more. We do not seem to be able to adapt our game plan on the run. When Wales surprised us with the wheel and drive, we did not have the nous to work out a counter.
Same when England came at us with a more expansive game than we perhaps expected. What happened to the supposed smartest team in rugby...
We do not seem to be able to work out a plan B on the run. I am hoping that will come with time and experience.

 

[Gnostic]

Scarfman, I just don't agree they were proven right.

The coach didn't miss the kicks, or the crucial tackles, or take any ill-advised tap penalties then get turned over. The players need to take responsibility for these things.

The coach didn't play out of his skin for England. England must bear the responsibility for that.

It seems that when we win, it is the players, and when we lose, it is the coach. I agree with Eddie Jones' assessment that the coach has about the same effect as a top player on the performance of a team. When we win, it is mainly the players' doing, and when we lose, it is also mainly the players' doing.

Same old same old Groucho.

The fact is that the losses have been predictable and the wins marginal at best. There have been patches of individual brilliance which have assisted the WBs to look much better than they are in truth. What we saw from England last night was a very well balanced team with a good game plan executed very well. When was the last time those factors came together for the WBs?

I don't know how we can be proven right when we consistantly pick the winners:losers and generally how it will occur.

Of course the coach doesn't play but he chooses who does and also should decide the game plans, including contingencies. Show me some evidence of thorough work in these areas. The other two areas the Coaches have massive input is in 1. conditioning and fitness - why is it that all the props except Alexander, (who hasn't been with the squad that long) look overweight and not trim like last year. 2. Bench use - this was back to its worst again last night but apart from one or two tests out of nearly three years has been consistantly woeful. If the bench players cannot offer anything in the second half they shouldn't be there.

 

[Scarfman]

McKenzie has totally hardened up two sides now. Seems to prove that it's possible. I reckon when Link gets the job post-RWC we'll see our forward play improve out of sight. Especially if he hires Foley to be scrum coach.

 

[Scarfman]

And I've been saying for ages that Barnes is our only test-quality kicker. I said that straight after Beale and JOC (James O'Connor)'s match winners. Any fool can see it. He's the only guy with consistent technique.

 

[Gnostic]

A touch of groundhog day once again with England. They up the physical stakes and we just can't go with them. Clearly our game plan and execution needs to change against them, because what we are doing right now just isn't working. However, that doesn't mean that in the immediate aftermath that a bunch of short sighted emotional decisions get made. You can't just sack all the players and the coaches, that won't fix anything. England were very good last night and took their chances with both hands. Hard to argue with that and much credit to them.

In the wash up of this game and subsequently of the tour, there will be some hard decisions that will have to be made about some players in the squad. We are 10 months out from the RWC and have by my reckoning 6 tests to settle the squad and the tactics. There are some guys playing for their international futures right now and the question for Deans is whether or not he tells the players concerned. If I look across the 22 from last night, I would say that Giteau, Chisolm, McCalman, Genia(*), Brown, Mumm and Robinson(*) are in danger of missing out next year if they don't massively lift their game in the next couple of weeks. Now is the time to be ruthless and pick the squad we think can go the distance in the RWC. I will be interested to see how the boys respond in the next couple of weeks though. It will say a lot about their character. If we don't give a better account of ourselves, then I will come to the conclusion that we really are soft and have no chance next year.

(*) They are class these guys, but their place is not guaranteed and they need to know that.

Hornet the problem is that in the case of a prop like Fatcat and to a lesser extent the myth of Deans depth building is back in force. Who is there below them that could come in at this late stage. Slipper to start, Kepu on the bench to cover both sides, Daley isn't up to the job IMO? Who is there to take Genia's spot in the 22, Valentine, Kingi? Valentine hasn't impressed me for the Wicks let alone Oz, and Kingi just never got a chance at even a five minute cameo. The hard decisions had to be made on the EOYT last year and before the 3N this year and they were not.

 

[Blue]

Jouberts a South African....

You'll never win with a dirty Safer reffing. Might as well not pitch up.

Seriosuly. You're looking for excuses in all the wrong places.

And the worst reffing this weekend by a country mile was Walsh.

Joubert was pretty much spot on except at a couple of scrums and the lenght of field try (where looking again now he was unsighted so blame the touchie).