Wallabies v Ireland, Sun 20th Nov 7am AEDT

[Maulalltheway]

So what would you have to say to Rennie assuming you were in charge at Rugby Australia?

I'd not be giving instruction on on field tactics. As RA aren't coaches, they pay people for that.
Open conversations and discussions about why things aren't working yes. Get the feedback from the bloke you pay heaps of cash to coach on what's going wrong and why. Then assist if possible in finding a way to fix it.

I would have thought the separation of power here wasn't rocket science.

 

[Braveheart81]

An interesting take on Dan, Slim. Although a very favoured one on these threads I'm afraid,

The Wallabies presently have the following Forwards coming out of recent Brumbies Super Rugby sides. Slipper, Fainga'a, Ala'alatoa, Frost, Neville, Swain, Valetini, and Samu. And potentially Scott Sio. All good to excellent players. The two props are without question in the top four in the country and I'd argue Sio fit and injury free as he is now is just about the best of our LHP but not available.

The second row is dominated by Brumbies and ex-Brumbies players and are on par or better than any opposition they've played on this tour.

Rob Valetini has been inspirational at No 8 and consistently one of the best Wallaby forwards going round. Pistol Pete had a couple of very strong games at No 7 and is generally accepted as being the best cover for the whole backrow in the country.

All players who have been coached and tutored by Dan MacKellar in recent years. In all of our recent tests they, along with those from other franchises have been competitive at world level, except perhaps at the breakdown, as important as that is. Set piece is up there with the best internationally, while there is little criticism of their defensive efforts. But is the breakdown an area of Dan's responsibility? Laurie Fisher's I would have thought.

So I'm intrigued to find out just why Dan MacKellar is supposedly in the gun sights for apparent failure. He seems to tick all the boxes as forwards coach to me.

I don't think Slim is suggesting it has anything to do with the Brumbies forwards in the side.

It is more the fact that the Wallabies aren't doing overly well so it's not necessarily doing McKellar's CV much good right now to say he's the Wallabies forwards coach.

I'd certainly agree that our forwards are going better than our backs.

You mentioned set piece and clearly our scrum is better than our lineout but we also have a scrum coach so McKellar clearly can't take sole responsibility for that success.

I don't think anyone is arguing that McKellar should be out the door. I'm certainly less certain that he is tracking as well as the heir apparent that he was obviously being set up for though. A big part of this is that the team is not going well and he is part of that. The way it has been set up is that he can continue where Rennie has left off after serving his apprenticeship but maybe we're going to end up in a situation where we need to go in a new direction.

 

[stillmissit]

I think we can forget Scott Robertson as he would prefer to coach AB's and England have already been in talks with him.

EXCLUSIVE: England discuss succeeding Eddie Jones with Scott Robertson

EXCLUSIVE BY NIK SIMON: England have held talks with Kiwi Scott Robertson about taking over from Eddie Jones after the 2023 World Cup.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[stillmissit]

I'd not be giving instruction on on field tactics. As Rugby Australia aren't coaches, they pay people for that.
Open conversations and discussions about why things aren't working yes. Get the feedback from the bloke you pay heaps of cash to coach on what's going wrong and why. Then assist if possible in finding a way to fix it.

I would have thought the separation of power here wasn't rocket science.

I'd have had that conversation 12-18 months ago. I suspect your view assumes that rugby in Aus is a logical beast and my opinion is that it is a nest of politics.

 

[Maulalltheway]

I'd have had that conversation 12-18 months ago. I suspect your view assumes that rugby in Aus is a logical beast and my opinion is that it is a nest of politics.

Surely they're having these conversations on a quarterly basis minimum. Just as Rennie and the HP group at RA would be with the Super Rugby sides. not just about negative results but on the strategic plans.

i stand by my comment that RA cant be giving onfield instruction. They can ask for improvement or make comment to coaches about their feelings but not instruct on changes that need to be made

 

[stillmissit]

Of those three, McKellar would currently be the best, Thorn would be the most able to shake things up in the short term, and Coleman will probably be the best in a few years time.

Maybe you're on to something with Thorn. He wouldn't baulk at standing down players who didn't follow instructions, or at tossing them completely aside if they continue to offend. It would certainly shake the team up in (say) the short time left before WC23. OTOH, he might very well end up with no players at his disposal to select from.

Agree BR, Thorn could be hell or heaven but not heaven as we know it in rugby terms.

 

[Dctarget]

Robertson is surely a lock for NZ. I think we're in a race with England for O'Gara. Which I assume we'll lose, considering he can be paid more, close to home and actually win some games.

 

[stillmissit]

Surely they're having these conversations on a quarterly basis minimum. Just as Rennie and the HP group at Rugby Australia would be with the Super Rugby sides. not just about negative results but on the strategic plans.

i stand by my comment that Rugby Australia cant be giving onfield instruction. They can ask for improvement or make comment to coaches about their feelings but not instruct on changes that need to be made

Agree with this "not instruct on changes that need to be made". The board has 3 ex-wallaby players in their ranks who would have several ideas or thoughts about what is going on.

 

[PhilClinton]

Of those three, McKellar would currently be the best, Thorn would be the most able to shake things up in the short term, and Coleman will probably be the best in a few years time.

Maybe you're on to something with Thorn. He wouldn't baulk at standing down players who didn't follow instructions, or at tossing them completely aside if they continue to offend. It would certainly shake the team up in (say) the short time left before WC23. OTOH, he might very well end up with no players at his disposal to select from.

I actually think Thorn might be better suited to a representative team coaching structure like the Wallabies.

I don't think he's got the technical nuance or relationship building skills with players to be one of the great coaches of all time. But he knows how to get the best out of a group of players and identify talent to suit a gameplan.

It's pretty clear from the Reds performances over the last 4 years that he can get results and put skilled players on the park, but he gets stale with a lot of players after a while. Maybe if the playing group weren't being big daddied by him for 70% of the year like in Super Rugby, his coaching style could be more impactful.

For what it's worth I'm not saying he should be thrown into the Wallabies gig right now, but generally I think his coaching style could be suited to a national team setup.

 

[Maulalltheway]

Agree with this "not instruct on changes that need to be made". The board has 3 ex-wallaby players in their ranks who would have several ideas or thoughts about what is going on.

We all know that ex players don't necessarily make good coaches though.

 

[stillmissit]

Robertson is surely a lock for NZ. I think we're in a race with England for O'Gara. Which I assume we'll lose, considering he can be paid more, close to home and actually win some games.

DC, We would be in a decent situation if the Wallabies were showing some signs of improvement. A coach could make a name for himself turning things around as Eddie did when he took over a decent English squad that he turned into a good team.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Doritas Day : With so many first-rated players not available or injured this EOYT, I assume you consider the current sides being put out as consisting largely of next tier level players. Is this so? But, nevertheless, they have run both the 1st and 2nd rated rugby sides in WR (World Rugby) to a very close loss. Not too shabby for a collection of players not containing much in the way of world class talent.

 

[Brumby Runner]

And yet the Wallabies forward pack is consistently losing the battle at the breakdown, and three of those players you flagged - Slipper, Fainga'a, Swain - are consistently three of the worst offenders when it comes to discipline issues. Might not be the worst idea for someone else to give them some guidance and mentorship, don't you think?

Just the point I was making LC, isn't it up to Laurie Fisher if indeed he is responsible for the breakdown as most of us think? Why would sub-standard performance in an area he is not responsible for put Dan MacKellar's position in doubt? And you might add Porecki (most penalised and most lineouts lost of our Hookers on tour, Michael Hooper who I think remains the most YCed Wallaby in the game, Tupou and Bell as a pair of the most penalised props at scrum time, the list goes on).

 

[Ballboy]

I would normally be on the ' get rid of the coach ' bandwagon but i feel this is different i think it is dumb players not being able to act professionally on the field, how many neck rolls did we give away penalties for,, one in the first 5 mins which cost us 5 points and arguably the game , these Wallabidiots need to wake and i genuinely think we have a chance at the WC ( with a bit of luck ) as the late great Jack Gibson once said ' i can win with any sort of players except stupid ones '

 

[KevinO]

Also we should’ve won that. Crossed the chalk twice for it to be called back. Our game for the taking. This Irish side with out Johnny was lacking. All I thought Van Der Flier was pretty anonymous for a world player of the year nominee. Hooper had it over him.

I know rugby stats are all over the shop: ESPN rugby
VDF: 6 runs, 11 meters, 6 passes, 1 defender beater, 24 tackles, 4 missed tackles
Hooper: 5 runs, 5 meters, 10 passes, 1 offload, 15 tackles

Don't really think anyone had it over the other.

 

[Dctarget]

I know rugby stats are all over the shop: ESPN rugby
VDF: 6 runs, 11 meters, 6 passes, 1 defender beater, 24 tackles, 4 missed tackles
Hooper: 5 runs, 5 meters, 10 passes, 1 offload, 15 tackles

Don't really think anyone had it over the other.

Hooper with two decisive pilfers too!

 

[Maulalltheway]

Hooper with two decisive pilfers too!

it Baffles me how some weeks he is elite at the jackle and some weeks is anonymous

 

[Brumby Runner]

Hooper with two decisive pilfers too!

Decisive might be over-egging it a bit perhaps. Weren't they both early in the game and how many points did we score from them?

 

[Maulalltheway]

Decisive might be over-egging it a bit perhaps. Weren't they both early in the game and how many points did we score from them?

they were both when we were under extreme pressure.

 

[LeCheese]

Just the point I was making LC, isn't it up to Laurie Fisher if indeed he is responsible for the breakdown as most of us think? Why would sub-standard performance in an area he is not responsible for put Dan MacKellar's position in doubt? And you might add Porecki (most penalised and most lineouts lost of our Hookers on tour, Michael Hooper who I think remains the most YCed Wallaby in the game, Tupou and Bell as a pair of the most penalised props at scrum time, the list goes on).

My comment extends to Fisher as well - in any high performance environment, a diverse range of input and guidance is beneficial. For a large % of Wallabies players to be receiving the same coaching oversight at both club and national level seems like, if nothing else, a missed opportunity - especially when the forwards aren't excelling at the breakdown, line out, and often scrum.

Add to this that the Brumbies' were, as has been mentioned, one of the most penalised teams in Super, it seems notable that the Wallabies are being rinsed for their discipline, and that the three Brumbies players I mentioned (incl. the captain and another senior member of the team) are among the worst offenders this year.