Wallabies v France 3rd Test - 21 June Sydney

[wamberal]

Skelton for all his worth is not a lineout jumper and with him on it really effects a close line rolling maul. But the Hooker should see what the French did to us with all jumpers hitting Simmions and hit Skelton at the front..

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I do not understand why he cannot be developed as a lineout jumper, Brad Thorn managed it.

 

[Pfitzy]

Skelton for all his worth is not a lineout jumper and with him on it really effects a close line rolling maul. But the Hooker should see what the French did to us with all jumpers hitting Simmions and hit Skelton at the front..

When we were 6m out from the line and Simmons called himself, despite having both French locks standing right next to him, I knew we were going to lose the ball. Skelton was completely unmarked at the front.

We could have dropped a 2-1 move for TPN to score in the corner after faking a maul setup. Simple stuff but the backs wanted 6 ball. Waste

 

[BDA]

No one called for To'omua at 10 it was just responses to the person who said he wasn't a playmaker. Which is rubbish.

Lilo a great tackler so wouldn't be a problem at 10 or 12.

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Yeh no I realise no one called from To'omua to play 10, I just dont see why people are still writing about whether he should or shouldn't be a 10 for the wallabies. i read Hawko's post and I partly agree with the point he was trying to make about To'omua not being the right fit for the wallabies at 10 ( although its a bit rich to watch a guy play at 12 and then say he demonstrated he is not a 10...? hardly fair).

Whether he is a good 10 or not is irrelevant because we need him at 12.

Lilo is a good defender but will make zero dominant tackles against the likes of Tuilagi, Phillips, Davies, etc. Plus in what universe do you seriously see Lilo being our starting 12 come the WC. not on 2014 form that for sure

 

[Mr Doug]

Sully, great photos again mate, thanks for your efforts.
Question: Is that Hugh Jarse in photo #25?!!

 

[twenty seven]

On Skelton, a good debut. Carried well and threw 2 or 3 good offloads and that sublime short ball. He will be a useful weapon for the wallabies this year at various times. What's interesting is that we now have a number of locks who bring different things to the game and have different weaknesses.
Carter does tight work with a good set piece skills, makes a billion tackles and has good breakdown presence though is not quite as good on the carry as the rest.
Skelton brings a serious point of difference with his ability to be a threat with the ball in hand, and he can obviously hit like a sledge hammer. He does however noticeably weaken our lineout and his work rate is the lowest in terms of ground covered, tackles made and breakdown work effected.
Jones brings a little bit more on the carry than Carter (with less of a breakdown presence), not as much as Skelton but often pops up with really good support play.
Horwill in a way has the broadest skill set in that he is a good set piece exponent, has a high work rate in defence and breakdown, can carry ok, can tackle ok, can be physical and often is a good support player but right now he's not really dominating in any of those areas in a way that's saying "pick me". Experience does count for something though.
Simmons is pretty good at everything right now and runs our line out so he's in.

So what does Link do? He has players with a variety of skillsets. Does he go horses for courses or does he anoint 3 locks who between them cover all bases. In my view, in the starting XV you need to go horses for courses not only in selecting the locks but when balancing the skills of the forwards as a whole. The forward pack for this last test against the french probably wasn't the one best suited to grinding out a 2 point win against the AB's in the wet. It just wasn't. It was however, the right one for that game.
Against the AB's you need forwards who can 1st of all live with pace of the game. Secondary to that you need them to be able to make a difference in the game, and alter the way the AB's feel they should defend.

In that sense, I would look at Carter/Horwill as your options for no.4 to start vs the AB's in a pack that also features Palu, TPN and Kepu with Skelton and McCalman on the bench. Vs the Boks I would look to start Skelton at 4 in a pack that also features TPN and Higgers, with Horwill and Palu on the bench. I suppose this will all get worked out by form over the last month of Super Rugby but it's an interesting concept.

I agree with your breakdown of positives and weaknesses, however how come we cannot find 2 locks that compliment each other concerning their abilities. Have a look at NZ and SA, again!

 

[Scotty]

Just watched that again, Scotty, and it is very touch and go. Maybe an inch offside, and certainly not enough for a ref or touchie to pick up in real time.

Ok good. Just looked at the time he got a 'flying start'. Just great timing then!

 

[Train Without a Station]

Just watched the game paying particular attention to Skelton.

Pete King, figured it throw you a response and say I thought Skelton had a great game. Nothing he did showed him to be a higher choice in the LOCK pecking order. Considering he offered the worst involvement out of all locks this series in his set piece involvements surely this is a consideration when discussing how well he played his position?

It needs to be asked, will McCaw fall off his tackles the way the French back row did? Not at all knocking will, just saying that with better defence he won't look as effective.

Did anybody notice that he ran quite wide? He was so effective there. Is he a potential option to play 8? Obviously after yesterday it wouldn't be at the expense of Palu though! He showed that surely he has the skills to be able to handle it. Just because he is 200cm does he have to play lock?

Also Pfitzy, just wanted to say I noticed Will flop on quite a few rucks without taking out a player. Not a criticism of him as every player has ineffective involvements at points of a game, just noticed you haven't bagged him for it like you do Simmons.

 

[Richo]

It needs to be asked, will McCaw fall off his tackles the way the French back row did? Not at all knocking will, just saying that with better defence he won't look as effective.

A digression, but McCaw has looked decidedly mortal this series. Even his cloak of invisibility has been slipping. He might well run into form over the next few weeks, but I like Hooper in that matchup more and more.

 

[BDA]

Richo is right, and from memory McCaw did fall off a tackle either the first or second game which lead to a try.

 

[qwerty51]

It needs to be asked, will McCaw fall off his tackles the way the French back row did? Not at all knocking will, just saying that with better defence he won't look as effective.

You probably should've said Kaino or Read rather than McCaw.

 

[FrankLind]

A digression, but McCaw has looked decidedly mortal this series. Even his cloak of invisibility has been slipping. He might well run into form over the next few weeks, but I like Hooper in that matchup more and more.

I agree. I would pick Hooper ahead of McCaw.
I want to see Cane get a run, just so Hansen can compare them.

 

[Scotty]

Cant believe people are still talking about To'omua as a 10 for the wobs. To'omua is our 12, and he's the only player we have with the skill set we require in that position. We need a 12 that not only acts as a 2nd play maker but is defensively strong. If you look at the teams we will be playing in our Pool (wales and England) both rely heavily on their big centres to break the line and create chances. Our 12 and 13 will need to be able to stop their opposite numbers from getting over the advantage line. That rules out the likes on Beale and Lilo (at least to from the starting 12 role). The only players that have the defensive ability to play 12 in those games will be McCabe or Godwin, and neither are playmakers.

Agree with others that Skelton or Carter will get the starting spot against the Blecks. Carter's the safe choice but I'm undecided at this stage. Carter looked really good in his debut but to be perfectly honest, the French were shit in that game (worse than they were in the third test) so it is hard to tell what kind of impact he will make against the kiwis. My brain says carter but my gut says Skelton. I don't think the line-out is an area we are going to struggle too much to the All Blacks regardless of whether Skelton plays the first 40 minutes. Where we will struggle is if we are unable to get on the front foot and play some attacking football. I'd like to read other people's comments on the issue, and see the rest of the Super season play out before I make up my mind.

Why can't To'omua play 12 in defense and 10 in attack? Might be a good way to have Beale involved instead of Foley. Or if we want a more robust 12 that still has the ball skills, Tapuai could team up with To'omua in future.

I agree on your gut feel on the locks though. I say we let Skelton loose - we need guys that can dominate contact and the breakdown, and we have that with Skelton and Palu (plus great support from the front row).

 

[Ash]

Watching the replay, I have three criticisms for Foley:
- he had quite a few poor passes
- he commits to too many rucks where he doesn't need too, removing himself as an option as first receiver - this is particularly noticeable when we are in their red zone
- overplays his hand a little by running too much, quite a few times I thought he should have passed instead of taking the tackle

I'd say that if Quade had that type of game, he'd be criticised harshly on this forum. He got a score of 3/10 vs the Boks for less!

Foley will really need to up his game leading into the RC, as he's the only real choice we have at 10 at the moment. Beale is a great impact player for mine, and will remain on the bench.

White, and Phipps too, were too inaccurate with their passes.

Storming game from Palu, he'd be my pick for MotM. Of the starting players, I also particularly liked Folau, Slipper, both our locks. I thought all of our pack was handy, actually. And a few solid efforts from the backs.

BTW, who needs Cooper? We have had at least one kick charged down per game in this series (2 from To'omua, one from Foley), and many passes to no-one (Foley, White, To'omua, Phipps all guilty). Seems with Cooper out, the rest of the halves are determined to make up for his missing errors!

 

[qwerty51]

I agree. I would pick Hooper ahead of McCaw.
I want to see Cane get a run, just so Hansen can compare them.

Cane killed it last Bledsloe, it would be tempting to pick him again.

 

[Scotty]

Lilo is a good defender but will make zero dominant tackles against the likes of Tuilagi, Phillips, Davies, etc. Plus in what universe do you seriously see Lilo being our starting 12 come the WC. not on 2014 form that for sure

In what world does anyone make a dominant tackle against those three!!

 

[Scotty]

Watching the replay, I have three criticisms for Foley:
- he had quite a few poor passes
- he commits to too many rucks where he doesn't need too, removing himself as an option as first receiver - this is particularly noticeable when we are in their red zone
- overplays his hand a little by running too much, quite a few times I thought he should have passed instead of taking the tackle

I'd say that if Quade had that type of game, he'd be criticised harshly on this forum. He got a score of 3/10 vs the Boks for less!

Foley will really need to up his game leading into the RC, as he's the only real choice we have at 10 at the moment. Beale is a great impact player for mine, and will remain on the bench.

White, and Phipps too, were too inaccurate with their passes.

Storming game from Palu, he'd be my pick for MotM. Of the starting players, I also particularly liked Folau, Slipper, both our locks. I thought all of our pack was handy, actually. And a few solid efforts from the backs.

BTW, who needs Cooper? We have had at least one kick charged down per game in this series (2 from To'omua, one from Foley), and may passes to no-one (Foley, White, To'omua, Phipps all guilty). Seems with Cooper out, the rest of the halves are determined to make up for his missing errors!

I'll add one - I think he is playing too deep most of the time.

You can see this when he runs - because it takes him so long to get to the defensive line!

I'm also finding it difficult to remember a Foley pass leading to a try or even break. Think one kick did in the first game. On the other hand To'omua has shown a slight of hand that has lead to a few breaks/tries.

I'm glad you brought up the different standards when comparing players, Ash. I wanted to point out the Argie game that Cooper was (rightly) criticised for vs this game where Foley has at worst 'just a few things to fix up'. The same goes for Nick White - his last two games are equivalent to a poor Genia game, but you wouldn't know that that reading on here!

 

[Ulrich]

Skelton for all his worth is not a lineout jumper and with him on it really effects a close line rolling maul. But the Hooker should see what the French did to us with all jumpers hitting Simmions and hit Skelton at the front..

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I don't know what to make of that. I find it really strange that a lock is not a lineout jumper... It is one of the primary functions of a lock in my opinion.

 

[Ash]

Foley has had a few passes leading to tries / breaks, not many but a few. He had a good short ball to TPN in the first half, for instance, where TPN had a clean break. Beale has had more though, as Beale has come on and opened the game up.

 

[qwerty51]

Cooper and Genia are injured, that's why there's less criticism of White and Foley. They're going to be the playmakers regardless. Not saying we can't criticise them and we have but there's a difference when Genia and Cooper are playing poorly and there's other options.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I do not understand why he cannot be developed as a lineout jumper, Brad Thorn managed it.

Gigantor can jump. Most hookers can't throw the ball high enough without getting clearance from Air Traffic Control.