Wallabies Number 8 for the RWC

[drewprint]

Elsom pulled out some very solid hits over the weekend?

And as for alternatives, are you purposely leaving out Samo? I rate Palu highly too, but it's quite likely he just won't be fit, and Samo is the closest we have to that kind of physical, abrasive style.

Higgenbotham is an excellent bench option. He can do real damage towards the back end of a game I feel, but probably isn't suited to starting at this stage.

 

[naza]

Samo's 35 years old with a lot of miles on his wheels. Let's not count on him for more than bench work. There's only one Brad Thorn.

In the game I watched, Elsom let Spies run past him off the scrum for easy metres. The guy is a putrid defender.

 

[cyclopath]

Agree fully, perhaps why he had very limitted time at 8 for the Reds, and why I said although I was happy to see him get a start but it should have been at 6. Elsom has played 8 and did well there, so IMO if he must be on the field (and for Cyclo's sake I will not contribute to white noise) play Higginbum in the only position he is currently suited for (let him learn 8 at Super or Club Level) and play Elsom at 8.

Don't just do it for me!

 

[naza]

Agree fully, perhaps why he had very limitted time at 8 for the Reds, and why I said although I was happy to see him get a start but it should have been at 6. Elsom has played 8 and did well there, so IMO if he must be on the field (and for Cyclo's sake I will not contribute to white noise) play Higginbum in the only position he is currently suited for (let him learn 8 at Super or Club Level) and play Elsom at 8.

When was this ? Elsom is a passive lateral runner, the Giteau of forwards, who looks for a nice soft piece of grass to perform the Nathan Sharpe collapse maneouver.

This must be the same alternative reality in which Scott Higginbotham is abrasive in contact, Quade Cooper cool and composed, Saia Fainga'a competent at set piece, and Adam Ashley-Cooper passes the football.

 

[drewprint]

Samo's 35 years old with a lot of miles on his wheels. Let's not count on him for more than bench work. There's only one Brad Thorn.

In the game I watched, Elsom let Spies run past him off the scrum for easy metres. The guy is a putrid defender.

Big Radike went very well in 80 minute gigs this year in the Super 15. And of course it's a big step up, but I think the stamina is there. At the very least he deserves the chance to prove it.

And Rocky sure did miss Spies, that can't be denied. But he absolutely belted a few guys too. I don't think he's a putrid defender at all personally, but as they say, opinions are like arseholes...

 

[Cutter]

Clearly we are radically intelligent men, blessed with rare gifts.

Or maybe its just fucking obvious to blokes who know their footy ? We need to man up. Pocock is automatic at 7. Our #8 needs to be rawboned and physical and has to make a shitload of hard yards. Who else but Palu has that ability? That just leaves blindside flank. Your #6 needs to be your best defender. Elsom is a bloke I've long criticised. He is a poor defender (That's me being very generous). He cannot make offensive tackles. He makes the sort of tackles you expect a flyhalf to make - tackling side on, grabbing a bit of leg, getting dragged for a few yards but eventually puling the bloke down. That shit aint' good enough ! He's a leaner at the ruck, totally pissweak. On the other hand, McCalman's defence is pretty rawboned. Mac has a great workrate, doesn't shirk the tough stuff, has a knack for counter rucking and slowing down opposition pill. His only flaw is he's not freakishly dynamic athletically. So his running from #8 is nothing to write home about - fair criticism. Luckily there's a rugby home for blokes like that - they can graft away quite happily at blindside. Okay, 2nd flaw is that he's not the lineout option Elsom is.. we'll just have to suck that up.

Alternatives ? Higgers ? Are you kidding me ? A seagull who spends his time grubber kicking on the sideline is not the cure to our soft pack. We got rolled by Samoa. SAMOA ! SA-FUCKING-MOA !! Why hasn't anyone been put up against a wall and shot yet ? What a fucking travesty. I've had enough. I want blokes who crack heads not outside centre wannabes. Weak funts need not apply.

I've missed you naza.

McCalman hasn't shone for the Wallabies. I actually prefer Dennis at 6.

Gnostic

Elsom is not an 8 for the reasons I've mentioned above and also for the reasons naza mentions. At 8, there are two options only: a fit and firing Palu or Samo.

 

[naza]

And Rocky sure did miss Spies, that can't be denied. But he absolutely belted a few guys too. I don't think he's a putrid defender at all personally, but as they say, opinions are like arseholes...

Yeah, Rocky's so awesome that he can't even find a Super rugby team who wants him next year. But I guess all the Super rugby teams are arseholes too.

The Elsom situation mystifies me. I'm not completely writing him off - eventually he may return to some decent form. But look at the price South Africa pay for carrying John Smit, long past it, as captain. And he's actually got leadership qualities !

 

[Gagger]

Big Radike went very well in 80 minute gigs this year in the Super 15. And of course it's a big step up, but I think the stamina is there. At the very least he deserves the chance to prove it.

I didn't think there were that many(?), and he looked knackered to me. Can't blame the guy though - he's fricken 35!

 

[drewprint]

Gaggs, it might not have been all that many to be fair. But acknowledging that doesn't help me continue to push my pro Samo agenda!

Yeah, Rocky's so awesome that he can't even find a Super rugby team who wants him next year. But I guess all the Super rugby teams are arseholes too.

The Elsom situation mystifies me. I'm not completely writing him off - eventually he may return to some decent form. But look at the price South Africa pay for carrying John Smit, long past it, as captain. And he's actually got leadership qualities !

Geez you're combative. I just thought he went ok is all, but if you think he was absolutely abysmal then fair enough.

 

[DPK]

Good to have Naza back. The Naza approach to building a forward pack; only pick blokes who don't know any other way to run except straight forward and through anyone in their way.

 

[Gagger]

Gaggs, it might not have been all that many to be fair. But acknowledging that doesn't help me continue to push my pro Samo agenda!

I guess at least you don't have him as your avatar.....

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Okay, let's analyse this. There are two relevant questions:

1. What are the specific attributes expected from a no.8 which aren't applicable for a 6?

2. Does Higginbotham demonstrate these attributes?

Higginbotham might develop into an 8, but he's not one now.

I've outlined previously how I see each of the three back row positions ought to work (to my mind anyway). To wit:

Scotty, I take a very similar view to yours. Each spot in the back row requires a different sort of player and balance is important. Like you, I feel we need:

1, A fetcher, someone who is always at the breakdown, securing our ball or stealing theirs. They have the skills to link with the backs and the pace and/or smarts to always be at the right spot at a given time.

2, An enforcer, someone who often plays blindside and puts the hurt on in defence, carries the ball into contact, cleans out at ruck time and generally puts the shits up the opposition. These guys are often the biggest mongrels in a team (that's a term of endearment, BTW).

3, A perpetual motion machine, who is consistently carrying the ball up in attack and especially around the fringes, breaks or bends the line, spot tackles, provides a lineout option and covering field position for kicks and line breaks. In other words, your classical eight.

We have the fetcher, no problem there.

Rocky is much better suited to blindside, IMHO, than Higgers. He has a harder edge to his game and does more clean out at ruck time. He is also a good defender who knows how to knock blokes over.

Higgers is better in a ball carrying situation, can run off the back of a scrum, has good hands and is fast. He is also a guy who runs good support lines and knows where to be on kick return and other aspects with respect to field position. He's not an eight in the Palu mould, but he offers something different. When we need a guy to be the sledgehammer, we have Samo. The fact that we have the quartet of Pocock, Elsom, Higginbotham and Samo means that we can vary our game depending on the opposition and the situation. I'd like Cliffy to be in the mix too, but I have a suspicion that he's not going to make it.

 

[Joe Blow]

Hahaha. People are saying that Higgers is a 6 not an 8 and you throw this one out mate. Matt Hodgson is a 7 that often gets played at 6 and 8 and plays the exact same game. He has the unfortunate distinction of probably being the 2nd best 7 in the country at one point in his career, but unfortunately also being the 2nd best 7 at his province. He was played at 6 and 8 due to both injuries, and also probably being the 2nd best backrower at his province behind Pocock.

By that logic Ed Quirk was a 7 for the Reds this year, because he wore the 7 jersey, even though he played like a 6.

I throw it out because your bench players should be flexible enough to cover a few positions.
Who has been the Wallabies bench cover for the back row for the past few seasons?

Hodgson.

He is primarily a 7, and still probably the 2nd best 7 to Pocock in OZ, but he also can handle himself at 6 and 8.
He will be on the bench for most of our big games during the RWC.
He just has not been there for the past few weeks as Deans tries to sort out a few other positions within the squad

 

[Joe Blow]

I guess at least you don't have him as your avatar.....

What's that supposed to mean?
O0

 

[drewprint]

I guess at least you don't have him as your avatar.....

We sure could use some Nicholson-esque levels of crazy in our pack though!

 

[Cutter]

I've outlined previously how I see each of the three back row positions ought to work (to my mind anyway). To wit:

Scotty, I take a very similar view to yours. Each spot in the back row requires a different sort of player and balance is important. Like you, I feel we need:

1, A fetcher, someone who is always at the breakdown, securing our ball or stealing theirs. They have the skills to link with the backs and the pace and/or smarts to always be at the right spot at a given time.

2, An enforcer, someone who often plays blindside and puts the hurt on in defence, carries the ball into contact, cleans out at ruck time and generally puts the shits up the opposition. These guys are often the biggest mongrels in a team (that's a term of endearment, BTW).

3, A perpetual motion machine, who is consistently carrying the ball up in attack and especially around the fringes, breaks or bends the line, spot tackles, provides a lineout option and covering field position for kicks and line breaks. In other words, your classical eight.

We have the fetcher, no problem there.

Rocky is much better suited to blindside, IMHO, than Higgers. He has a harder edge to his game and does more clean out at ruck time. He is also a good defender who knows how to knock blokes over.

Higgers is better in a ball carrying situation, can run off the back of a scrum, has good hands and is fast. He is also a guy who runs good support lines and knows where to be on kick return and other aspects with respect to field position. He's not an eight in the Palu mould, but he offers something different. When we need a guy to be the sledgehammer, we have Samo. The fact that we have the quartet of Pocock, Elsom, Higginbotham and Samo means that we can vary our game depending on the opposition and the situation. I'd like Cliffy to be in the mix too, but I have a suspicion that he's not going to make it.

The analysis you have done is very different to the analysis I have done. I've looked at the technical requirements of a no. 8. You've looked at the physical attributes/impact of the three different backrow positions. Perhaps that's why we continue to disagree.

 

[Kuta88]

It's only due to the Queensland reds winning the super 15 title that Samo is even in the squad..
Higgers should def stay in the 22 but not start, he should come off the bench as an impact, yes he brings X factor but his work rate is simply not good enough to start.. Personally i think higgers was quiet against the box and his stats reflect that.. McCalman should be starting at number 8 there is no doubt about it, his work rate is second to none, very rarely does he miss a tackle or make a mistake..
I would much rather a workhorse in my team than someone that does 1 or 2 big things then stays quiet for the rest of the game

 

[Gagger]

Welcome Kuta88. Good first hit out.

 

[Hub]

Samo is too error prone, honestly that guy makes me worry when it comes to the back end of the game.. on another note, the best 8 I've seen was Jared Waerea Hargraves (spelling?) in the Oz 19s a few years ago.. where is he now? the guy was a gun when I saw him running around

 

[Scotty]

Okay, let's analyse this. There are two relevant questions:

1. What are the specific attributes expected from a no.8 which aren't applicable for a 6?
a. Weight in the scrum and holding the locks together.
b. Positional awareness both in where to go from a scrum, getting the running lines right in cover defence and being in position to cover for the fullback/wingers when they chase etc.
c. Being able to handle the ball at the back of the scrum both when going forward (much harder than it seems) and going backward and providing good delivery to your half.
d. Being able to make ground off the back of a scrum and get over the advantage line even when marked closely.

Other attributes you expect from an 8 are often more general skills which can be compensated for by having balancing elements with other backrowers. For example, being a line busting runner, hitting wider gaps, lineout proficiency, brutal defender, good support player etc.

Higginbotham might develop into an 8, but he's not one now.

Comments on your criteria:

a I couldn't split samo and Palu here but it is objective

B any of the backrow can perform that role and so can the 9

C I reckon samo is better than Palu at this

D Palu is the best at this

I agree that higgers is not a 8, and so does link since he replaced him with samo in that position. If we could fit higgers samo Elsom and Palu in the same 22 it would worry a few teams. The sort of team to take on England at the business end of the tournament.

Ps welcome back naza. You are going a bit lighter in Elsom than you used to.