Wallabies front row

[RedsHappy]

RedsHappy are you suggesting we judge Noriega on one test where he had only a few rookies to choose from?

That would not be fair. Sorry but no coach in the world will magically make Daly stronger and teach him in a week to scrum better.

Neither Daley or Ma'afu are at this stage test quality. Coaching has little to do with it.

No, not after Noriega's head at all...I don't know enough about scrums or forwards work in depth to make that assessment.

I just wanted to note how little of the debate here involved the whole issue of Wallabies' forwards coaching capabilities, now or in the recent past. I do know that much of forwards and especially scrum work is actually pretty highly skilled and technical (at this level), and outstanding coaching support can make a difference to results even with great forwards talent. (I think, for example, Foley made a big difference to Wallabies' forwards and scrums up to late 2008.)

 

[fatprop]

Brian Smith did when he was London Irish Coach

 

[daz]

During the tv coverage, everytime the camera went to the coaches booth Noriega looked like he was on the verge of vomiting/fainting/dying.

I thought it was quite telling when immediately after the game on Saturday, RD turned around and shook Noriega's hand and had a few quiet words. The man is a forwards coach, not a miracle worker. Given the cattle to work with (and note that Noreiga did not choose the forward lineup) and the time available I guess he did the best he could.

And on a final note, I do think it worthwhile to say that Daley, Finger, Ma'afu and to a lesser extent Slipper showed enormous courage to reload time after time after time, knowing they were being slaughtered. Full marks for giving it a go and not complaining afterwards; isn't that the Aussie way?

 

[Moses]

I don't think courage is stepping up to do your job, regardless how ill prepared you are to do it. What other option did they have? Could they have just refused to scrum? That would have taken courage...

 

[Brumbies Guy]

I don't think courage is stepping up to do your job, regardless how ill prepared you are to do it. What other option did they have? Could they have just refused to scrum? That would have taken courage...

You obviously haven't had to stick your head into a scrum being completely dominated like ours was for you to say that

 

[Moses]

You obviously haven't had to stick your head into a scrum being completely dominated like ours was for you to say that

True, but as front rowers they signed up for scrums. To call them courageous to go through with it, what would have been the cowardly option?

 

[RedsHappy]

....

I thought it was quite telling when immediately after the game on Saturday, RD turned around and shook Noriega's hand and had a few quiet words. The man is a forwards coach, not a miracle worker. Given the cattle to work with (and note that Noreiga did not choose the forward lineup) and the time available I guess he did the best he could.

.....

Interesting Daz. I would actually have thought that a crack, top level forwards or scrum coach would, or should, (a) know a huge amount re all candidate forwards - new or old - potentially available to the Wallabies and (b) be intimately involved in selection recommendations and final decisions, even if he may not be entitled to the final say.

 

[RedsHappy]

True, but as front rowers they signed up for scrums. To call them courageous to go through with it, what would have been the cowardly option?

...and I think one can say with some safety that 'taking the un-courageous option' on the field would have been something of a career-limiting move with the Wallabies...;-)

 

[Lance Free]

Regardless of the result or how good we were elsewhere, the scrum was a disgrace and we're again a laughing stock.

2 pen tries, 9 pens and a short arm - simply outrageous! And if we'd lost because of it? Everyone would be calling for his head.

I understand what he's doing but fuck me, Deans needs to pick at least one of them who can scrummage and should start by bringing the Fuse back, at the least.

He doesn't have to retain him when Alexander, Cat, Kepu etc return but its a fucking test match and apart from his known 'frailties' at least he can scrummage most of the time.

he's had a good season and was able to do some good stuff around the park. He got dumped when he gave how many penalties away? Not anywhere near as many as Ma'afu.....

The front row depth in Australian rugby is illusory. FFS, Dan Cole isn't even in Leicester's starting 15.......

 

[Blue]

During the tv coverage, everytime the camera went to the coaches booth Noriega looked like he was on the verge of vomiting/fainting/dying.

Full marks for giving it a go and not complaining afterwards; isn't that the Aussie way?

Maybe. But I think it's more the "If I don't reload every time and if I was to complain after the game I stand zero chance of ever being elected again" way.

 

[MrMouse]

...I note that few posters are offering up thoughts on Noriega's competencies as revealed over the relevant period (and on Saturday's display). Why is Wallabies forwards/scrum coaching infrastructure and the people there mentioned so little - do we believe selections are everything? ...Thoughts?

I think being judged on two performances with pathetically inexperienced and under-prepared front-rowers would be a touch unfair. Certainly, I have had issues with Williams as forward coach since he was brought in - I think it would be fair to say that Australia's forward play has stagnated at best under him, and letting Foley go was a mistake.

However, it is worth noting that Foley also wanted a less travel-intensive role, to spend more time with his family. The Tahs job provided that. What would be nice in the land of rainbows and lollipops would be the pooling of knowledge in Australian circles - eg using Foley, Link etc as consultants focusing on specific areas of play. Interstate jealousy/hoarding is the biggest barrier, but I can dream...

I'd dump Williams if there was someone better readily available but I'm not aware of such an option. Not prepared to judge Parto yet. Hope that's enough thoughts for the moment.

 

[MrMouse]

Interesting Daz. I would actually have thought that a crack, top level forwards or scrum coach would, or should, (a) know a huge amount re all candidate forwards - new or old - potentially available to the Wallabies and (b) be intimately involved in selection recommendations and final decisions, even if he may not be entitled to the final say.

RedsHappy, let me introduce you to (c) Robbie Deans, the first, last and intermediate word on selection.

 

[RedsHappy]

.....

I understand what he's doing but fuck me, Deans needs to pick at least one of them who can scrummage and should start by bringing the Fuse back, at the least.

He doesn't have to retain him when Alexander, Cat, Kepu etc return but its a fucking test match and apart from his known 'frailties' at least he can scrummage most of the time.

he's had a good season and was able to do some good stuff around the park. He got dumped when he gave how many penalties away? Not anywhere near as many as Ma'afu.....

The front row depth in Australian rugby is illusory. FFS, Dan Cole isn't even in Leicester's starting 15.......

Very well said! I know I keep on about this (apologies), but in observing-Wallabies-2010-mode so many observers seem to be in a 'thank heaven for small mercies' mode vs insisting that in our sport with such a fine heritage and fan base, we demand the absolute, world-class best (not 'better than Jones and Connolly') and protest strongly when, over time, it is not delivered. And can we please stop this highly dangerous 'we're developing talent for the WC so current, accumulated w-l ratio doesn't really matter' stuff...(and btw see what Pienaar had to say about all that in today's SMH piece I gave the link to elsewhere), because it damn well does matter, to the fans, and the long-term health of the game in our country.

LF, my creeping fear as at mid-2010 is that RD, heavily stroked by the Oz mainline rugby media and a few of the articulate old guard with various media columns, has now adopted this 'trialling brilliant youth for the future' modality as a kind of career-defining obsession that will get him through to grand victories in 2011 (or sometime). The evidence is building of this near-obsession's reckless qualities and dancing-with-disaster outcomes. The other more subtle aspect of this is that the whole modality of this approach appears to bias a kind of 'selection is everything' mindset dominating all other key coaching dimensions, and thus quite possibly at the expense of, eg, team culture and attitude development, deep skills reliability and consistent skills excellence (and low error rate, which we are not yet seeing), deep forwards technical skills, etc.

 

[Lance Free]

I'm with you RedsHappy. It's good that we're developing all these young players - you have to do that - but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sometimes you just have to transition. This is one of those times.

In rugby, there are core functions that need to be won. Your own feed at scrumtime is one of them.....

 

[daz]

True, but as front rowers they signed up for scrums. To call them courageous to go through with it, what would have been the cowardly option?

I'll tell you what would have been worse: for them to not go through with it. Some of you think we are a laughing stock now? Imagine if they had gone uncontested. The media (and most of us!) would have destroyed these guys more effectively than any reaming in the scrum.

They knew they were being beat, they knew it was going to hurt, they knew they were letting the team down, and still they went back into the lions den for more when they could have taken the easy way out. Fuck me, if that isn't courage I clearly don't have a handle on the English language.

There is only one person in the entire ARU setup that is fully responsible for this: RD.

 

[daz]

but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sometimes you just have to transition. This is one of those times.

Agreed, but Baxter and Dunning weren't there, and they won't be there this Saturday either. Neither will all the other names being floated around. So what options do we have again?

In rugby, there are core functions that need to be won. Your own feed at scrumtime is one of them.....

Well, we beat the Poms with a completely disfunctional forward pack. Core function, yes. Need to be won? The evidence last Saturday suggests otherwise.*

* This statement is possibly only true when playing England....

 

[El Barto]

Ma'afu was like a Wallaby in the headlights ( sorry) and let the scrum down badly, Daley will stay. We just need a mongrel like Richard Loe to stand up and have a go.

 

[Moses]

...and I think one can say with some safety that 'taking the un-courageous option' on the field would have been something of a career-limiting move with the Wallabies...;-)

My point exactly, can you imaging a rookie front rower telling his captain or coach that he doesn't want to scrum anymore? Going uncontested would have been Robbie's decision, not the brave front rowers.

 

[cheezel]

Great quote at the bottom of your posts daz.

 

[fatprop]

And on a final note, I do think it worthwhile to say that Daley, Finger, Ma'afu and to a lesser extent Slipper showed enormous courage to reload time after time after time, knowing they were being slaughtered. Full marks for giving it a go and not complaining afterwards; isn't that the Aussie way?

So what is the board criteria as to when "brave", becomes shit? ie