Wallabies 2023

[stillmissit]

That's always been the real issue. Remember the 2007 RWC. Australia produces one of the best backrowers in the world cause is what the Aussie is good at and what people like more.

The role of the tight five often goes unnoticed and few people appreciate. It has to do with the influence of Australian sport, AFL and NRL are fast paced sports where fast players are highly valued

Thus the media going off when a prop runs 25m and scores. The Dunning principal.

 

[Lightblue]

If we judge a 10 by goal kicking then we might be waiting a while for a competent 10. In the past, we have had great goal kickers from FB Matt Burke, Lock John Eales. The idea that the 10 is the designated kicker is flawed.
Give me a guy who can attack the line, kick strategically, set up a break and finish off a movement about to breakdown. I'm sure there's a l;ot more to a good 10 but as an ex-lock I am just an observer of the talent brigade.

Stephen Larkham comes to mind? One of our best wasn’t a goal kicker. Nor was Mark Ella if I remember. You have to have a kicker though.

 

[Derpus]

If we judge a 10 by goal kicking then we might be waiting a while for a competent 10. In the past, we have had great goal kickers from FB Matt Burke, Lock John Eales. The idea that the 10 is the designated kicker is flawed.
Give me a guy who can attack the line, kick strategically, set up a break and finish off a movement about to breakdown. I'm sure there's a l;ot more to a good 10 but as an ex-lock I am just an observer of the talent brigade.

Doesn't have to be the 10 but it does have to be someone. None of our other likely backline options kick, besides White, so... you want White taking spot kicks?

 

[stillmissit]

Completely. We have talent in spades in the back row but can't make any sensible conclusions until key figures in the tight 5 are locked. And then we start to fill the holes. Most suggestions that cover holes or build strengths create problems elsewhere. And there is little choice but to alter the back row to suit.

I don't see depth in props with the injuries. Depth in second row inevitably brings o/s players into the mix. We do seem to have depth in row/6 hybrids - which impacts the back row.

And no 2 has questions all over it.

Some good building blocks but plenty of questions.

Dru, good thoughts. We need to focus on the engine room and then who can fill our backrow.
The key bits I like in those positions are a big smart 8, a powerful fast 6 and a 7 whose quick, hard on the ball, putting the op 10 under pressure and (along with others in the team) being able to pilfer.
If we can find an 8 then Bobby V could be one of the best 6's in the world.

 

[dru]

Doesn't have to be the 10 but it does have to be someone. None of our other likely backline options kick, besides White, so... you want White taking spot kicks?

The 10 is the role that for me must be able to nail a drop when closing games. Drop skills and conversion skills aren’t necessarily aligned. But often are.

Ditto kick pass and kicks in play.

 

[stillmissit]

Doesn't have to be the 10 but it does have to be someone. None of our other likely backline options kick, besides White, so... you want White taking spot kicks?

I am assuming everything is up in the air and not bolted down as you suggest. We all want the best team and an open mind is a part of finding that.
Eddie will look for a safe space but there ain't one in Australia ATM.

 

[stillmissit]

The 10 is the role that for me must be able to nail a drop when closing games. Drop skills and conversion skills aren’t necessarily aligned. But often are.

Ditto kick pass and kicks in play.

agree re drop kicks. I have been shouting at the TV for years "Take the drop you idiot!". I think Gordon has 2 of your requirements but never seen him drop kick.

 

[Misunderstood fan]

Gordon was known for his goal kicks. Last night’s game could have been that he wasn’t expecting to kick and ill prepared. Give him that duty and a couple of months to prepare you will see a different result. If he can plant kicks to the runners on the side he must be able to plant a drop kick. The kid runs rings around Lolesio, Donaldson, Edmed in skills and reading the game and a couple of missed goal kicks should be the least of any consideration for squad selection. QC (Quade Cooper), JOC (James O'Connor) and Carter would be my 3.

Noah missed a couple last night.

 

[dru]

Dru, good thoughts. We need to focus on the engine room and then who can fill our backrow.
The key bits I like in those positions are a big smart 8, a powerful fast 6 and a 7 whose quick, hard on the ball, putting the op 10 under pressure and (along with others in the team) being able to pilfer.
If we can find an 8 then Bobby V could be one of the best 6's in the world.

The thing that bothers me is the effectiveness in the true engine room. Recently pod 1 with the second row and possibly no 8. I think we are close with 8 but I’m not yet convinced even with the Brumby second row, let alone depth. Feels to me that we seriously need to consider Skelton even with the compromises.

 

[Wilson]

Gordon was known for his goal kicks. Last night’s game could have been that he wasn’t expecting to kick and ill prepared. Give him that duty and a couple of months to prepare you will see a different result. If he can plant kicks to the runners on the side he must be able to plant a drop kick. The kid runs rings around Lolesio, Donaldson, Edmed in skills and reading the game and a couple of missed goal kicks should be the least of any consideration for squad selection. QC (Quade Cooper) (Quade Cooper), JOC (James O'Connor) (James O'Connor) and Carter would be my 3.

Noah missed a couple last night.

I'm certainly not ruling him out on kicking yet, only making the point that he hasn't got any record as a kicker at a professional level and that's an important factor to his game. I don't think past ability kicking goals in club or age grade will count for much if he's coming off a sub 70% spell at super level.

I'm definitely not opposed to players other than the 10 taking the kicks, but as Derpus points out just about all the accurate kickers in and around the squad are 10's. The others are guys like White who is a great distance kicker but not exactly noted for sideline conversions or more difficult kicks from an accuracy perspective. If we had a good solid kicker at 15 or 12 it would greatly reduce the need for the 10 to be that guy, the nearest we've got to that is Hodge. Lonergan is the other one, but Lonergan making the squad as the 3rd half is a boost for Lolesio's chances, probably to the point where it's not in Carter's favour.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Doesn't have to be the 10 but it does have to be someone. None of our other likely backline options kick, besides White, so... you want White taking spot kicks?

Lonergan?

 

[Misunderstood fan]

I'm certainly not ruling him out on kicking yet, only making the point that he hasn't got any record as a kicker at a professional level and that's an important factor to his game. I don't think past ability kicking goals in club or age grade will count for much if he's coming off a sub 70% spell at super level.

I'm definitely not opposed to players other than the 10 taking the kicks, but as Derpus points out just about all the accurate kickers in and around the squad are 10's. The others are guys like White who is a great distance kicker but not exactly noted for sideline conversions or more difficult kicks from an accuracy perspective. If we had a good solid kicker at 15 or 12 it would greatly reduce the need for the 10 to be that guy, the nearest we've got to that is Hodge. Lonergan is the other one, but Lonergan making the squad as the 3rd half is a boost for Lolesio's chances, probably to the point where it's not in Carter's favour.

You need to get over the line before you take a goal kick. Carter has got more chance of getting the team there. By a country mile. I’m ‘team Carter’.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I'm certainly not ruling him out on kicking yet, only making the point that he hasn't got any record as a kicker at a professional level and that's an important factor to his game. I don't think past ability kicking goals in club or age grade will count for much if he's coming off a sub 70% spell at super level.

I'm definitely not opposed to players other than the 10 taking the kicks, but as Derpus points out just about all the accurate kickers in and around the squad are 10's. The others are guys like White who is a great distance kicker but not exactly noted for sideline conversions or more difficult kicks from an accuracy perspective. If we had a good solid kicker at 15 or 12 it would greatly reduce the need for the 10 to be that guy, the nearest we've got to that is Hodge. Lonergan is the other one, but Lonergan making the squad as the 3rd half is a boost for Lolesio's chances, probably to the point where it's not in Carter's favour.

In my world, one of Cooper or O'Connor miss out on the RWC, whichever is injured or not in form. I'd take both Gordon and Lolesio. The way he's progressing atm, it won't surprise me to see Lonergan sharing the No 9 duties with Nic White at the Cup. That would take care of the goal kicking issue whenever he's (Lonergan) on the ground.

 

[whitefalcon]

Gordon is having a great season and definitely deserves to be in the world cup conversation, but he hasn't been kicking for goal until Hodge was injured this weekend and doesn't have a strong reputation as a place kicker.

With Hodge out for what looks like a while he's going to get his chance to prove himself as a kicker, but a poor performance off the tee will count against him much more in a world cup year. Hodge and/or O'Connor making the squad might help his chances a bit as they can cover other positions and kick goals, but it'll leave the door open for the other contenders.

Play Lonergan at 9 and no problems

 

[Wilson]

In my world, one of Cooper or O'Connor miss out on the RWC, whichever is injured or not in form. I'd take both Gordon and Lolesio. The way he's progressing atm, it won't surprise me to see Lonergan sharing the No 9 duties with Nic White at the Cup. That would take care of the goal kicking issue whenever he's (Lonergan) on the ground.

I'm not sure where Eddie rates Noah at the moment and if he sees him as a "younger" 10 which has him in more direct competition with Gordon. Certainly if you're running Lonergan as the bench halfback with little to no test experience in the world cup you will lean to pairing him with Noah, so it's unlikely to help Carter that much.

As far as O'Connor goes I think one of him and Hodge is almost a certainty for the squad at this point, they're the only guys with real utility across the backline that can cover 10 and both stand as experienced options to bring on at the close, something Eddie likes. It becomes a lot harder to run a 6-2 bench without one of them in the squad. They're also very useful to have if concussion becomes an issue and you need to rearrange the backline in the pool stages without replacing someone in the squad. That 12 day stand down is going to complicate those decisions for a lot of teams.

I do think Gordon has been phenomenal this year - I picked him for TOTW every week. I also don't doubt that he can kick at the level required, but he is yet to prove it in professional rugby and off to a shaky start. I think doing that is going to be the key to whether or not he can make the world cup squad (assuming he maintains his form otherwise). If it wasn't a world cup year I don't think it'd really matter that much, they'd cap him off the bench and work it out elsewhere, that's just not really an option in knock out rugby with squad limitations.

 

[stillmissit]

Stephen Larkham comes to mind? One of our best wasn’t a goal kicker. Nor was Mark Ella if I remember. You have to have a kicker though.

LB, But Larkham could surely do a quality drop kick!!!

 

[TSR]

Australia has never had a shortage of talented backrowers, it’s the tight 5 where we have always struggled. Given the players currently out injured that concern remains.

I tend to find the back-row selection discussion a bit of white noise until we settle on a tight 5, the back-row is then selected on complementary strengths and balance to the rest of the pack.

A couple of years ago we had Pocock & Hooper in the back row because there weren’t enough test level backrowers to push one to the bench, and we consistently struggled to fill the 3rd spot, let along bench depth. We had a succession of guys like McMahon, Mumm, a rookie Hanigan, Dempsey, Salakai-Loto. Prior to that guys like Richard Brown, Ben McCalman, Ben Mowen and Dave Dennis

Before Naisarani we hadn’t had a genuine number 8 since Palu (McMahon and Pocock were both good players but neither are what I’d call a genuine 8). And it is notable Naisarani was moved on pretty quickly. Fardy was a successful 6, but there was gaps both before and after his selection. We still don’t really have obvious well balanced row. (Eg there is no obvious on baller in the leading backrow contenders - and there are a lack of effective onballers across our whole pack - something which severely undermined us last year).

I’m not saying all of these guys were total failures - there are a lot of good players in there - but most of them were inconsistent at best at test level and, apart from a brief period where Pocock, Hooper and Fardy operated together fielding 4 consistently test level backrowers in our Wallabies team has been a huge issue.

We’ve also had problems in almost every other position at various times, but I disagree that the lack of backrowers hasn’t been a chronic Achilles heel.

 

[Lightblue]

A fit Quade is a big part of the jigsaw in our Wallaby 10 sagas. Will he be match fit? JOC (James O'Connor) is hot and cold and a possibility of injury reoccurrence? All the other young 10’s are hardly Johnny Sextons, without years of experience. The quarterback of rugby in any team needs to be good going into a RWC. It will all be down to fitness, timing, form and a bit of luck, as to who we take. Adding to this what game plan Eddie decides to play. I’m glad I’m not a coach. Gordon showing good form early though. The Rebels game plan puts him more in control which is showing. Tim Horan will no doubt anoint the poor kid with ‘Wallaby saviour’ or some other ridiculous commentary. Let’s just hope all our players increase form and stay injury free. World Cup will be great.

 

[Lightblue]

LB, But Larkham could surely do a quality drop kick!!!

Only one. But boy was it a beauty!

 

[Misunderstood fan]

A couple of years ago we had Pocock & Hooper in the back row because there weren’t enough test level backrowers to push one to the bench, and we consistently struggled to fill the 3rd spot, let along bench depth. We had a succession of guys like McMahon, Mumm, a rookie Hanigan, Dempsey, Salakai-Loto. Prior to that guys like Richard Brown, Ben McCalman, Ben Mowen and Dave Dennis

Before Naisarani we hadn’t had a genuine number 8 since Palu (McMahon and Pocock were both good players but neither are what I’d call a genuine 8). And it is notable Naisarani was moved on pretty quickly. Fardy was a successful 6, but there was gaps both before and after his selection. WR (World Rugby) (World Rugby) still don’t really have obvious well balanced row. (Eg there is no obvious on baller in the leading backrow contenders - and there are a lack of effective onballers across our whole pack - something which severely undermined us last year).

I’m not saying all of these guys were total failures - there are a lot of good players in there - but most of them were inconsistent at best at test level and, apart from a brief period where Pocock, Hooper and Fardy operated together fielding 4 consistently test level backrowers in our Wallabies team has been a huge issue.

We’ve also had problems in almost every other position at various times, but I disagree that the lack of backrowers hasn’t been a chronic Achilles heel.

I somewhat agree with you not to rush Carter in a RWC year. Up until yesterday that was my thinking as we don’t want another Lolesio outcome. BUT after watching the options at 10 over the weekend, Carter would have to be the best Australian playing option for the Wallabies to have a chance. His game against the super rugby leading team shows his new found mental toughness and the level of skill above all others. By all means, take him as the 3rd option so get gets around the team leading into 2024. Even if he was called in the play a game, as coach you would confident in his ability. We want to win. No more of this safe shit or keeping Lolesio in just because he has played a test match.