Wallabies 2023

[stillmissit]

I'm not sure where Eddie rates Noah at the moment and if he sees him as a "younger" 10 which has him in more direct competition with Gordon. Certainly if you're running Lonergan as the bench halfback with little to no test experience in the world cup you will lean to pairing him with Noah, so it's unlikely to help Carter that much.

As far as O'Connor goes I think one of him and Hodge is almost a certainty for the squad at this point, they're the only guys with real utility across the backline that can cover 10 and both stand as experienced options to bring on at the close, something Eddie likes. It becomes a lot harder to run a 6-2 bench without one of them in the squad. They're also very useful to have if concussion becomes an issue and you need to rearrange the backline in the pool stages without replacing someone in the squad. That 12 day stand down is going to complicate those decisions for a lot of teams.

I do think Gordon has been phenomenal this year - I picked him for TOTW every week. I also don't doubt that he can kick at the level required, but he is yet to prove it in professional rugby and off to a shaky start. I think doing that is going to be the key to whether or not he can make the world cup squad (assuming he maintains his form otherwise). If it wasn't a world cup year I don't think it'd really matter that much, they'd cap him off the bench and work it out elsewhere, that's just not really an option in knock out rugby with squad limitations.

Interesting post Wilson. I suspect that given Cooper's injury/age he will need to prove himself as I can't see Eddie taking him with major Q's over him. It is important that we have a quality 10 and at the moment we only have Cooper who has the experience and that is a dangerous position to be in for a Cup year. Interested in how JOC (James O'Connor) goes this year . I would think, assuming he continues to impress, Carter Gordon will be the backup 10/wing as he is pretty quick, I watched him pull down a player who had more than 10m start on him a few weeks ago?
Agree with you about JOC (James O'Connor) or Hodge as the utility player. I wonder what the 33 player squad will offer us?

 

[Misunderstood fan]

Response to wrong post. Sorry.

 

[RugbyReg]

Only one. But boy was it a beauty!

Two for the Wallabies

Plus a couple of conversions

Ella also kicked for goal for the wallabies.

 

[stillmissit]

A couple of years ago we had Pocock & Hooper in the back row because there weren’t enough test level backrowers to push one to the bench, and we consistently struggled to fill the 3rd spot, let along bench depth. We had a succession of guys like McMahon, Mumm, a rookie Hanigan, Dempsey, Salakai-Loto. Prior to that guys like Richard Brown, Ben McCalman, Ben Mowen and Dave Dennis

Before Naisarani we hadn’t had a genuine number 8 since Palu (McMahon and Pocock were both good players but neither are what I’d call a genuine 8). And it is notable Naisarani was moved on pretty quickly. Fardy was a successful 6, but there was gaps both before and after his selection. We still don’t really have obvious well balanced row. (Eg there is no obvious on baller in the leading backrow contenders - and there are a lack of effective onballers across our whole pack - something which severely undermined us last year).

I’m not saying all of these guys were total failures - there are a lot of good players in there - but most of them were inconsistent at best at test level and, apart from a brief period where Pocock, Hooper and Fardy operated together fielding 4 consistently test level backrowers in our Wallabies team has been a huge issue.

We’ve also had problems in almost every other position at various times, but I disagree that the lack of backrowers hasn’t been a chronic Achilles heel.

TSR when we look back at Kefu and Willie O before him, Tuynman and the great, never replaced Loane we have had a long drought of excellent 8's. We have had a never ending stream of excellent 7's and a few 6's of note inc Fardy and Cornelson and Price (6 or 7?) for a short while.
We need to focus on turning average locks into backrowers if they have the speed. Frost is not a failed lock but he could be a far better 6 or maybe later on an 8. Anstee will struggle from the Force but has the basics.

 

[Adam84]

A couple of years ago we had Pocock & Hooper in the back row because there weren’t enough test level backrowers to push one to the bench, and we consistently struggled to fill the 3rd spot, let along bench depth. We had a succession of guys like McMahon, Mumm, a rookie Hanigan, Dempsey, Salakai-Loto. Prior to that guys like Richard Brown, Ben McCalman, Ben Mowen and Dave Dennis

Before Naisarani we hadn’t had a genuine number 8 since Palu (McMahon and Pocock were both good players but neither are what I’d call a genuine 8). And it is notable Naisarani was moved on pretty quickly. Fardy was a successful 6, but there was gaps both before and after his selection. We still don’t really have obvious well balanced row. (Eg there is no obvious on baller in the leading backrow contenders - and there are a lack of effective onballers across our whole pack - something which severely undermined us last year).

I’m not saying all of these guys were total failures - there are a lot of good players in there - but most of them were inconsistent at best at test level and, apart from a brief period where Pocock, Hooper and Fardy operated together fielding 4 consistently test level backrowers in our Wallabies team has been a huge issue.

We’ve also had problems in almost every other position at various times, but I disagree that the lack of backrowers hasn’t been a chronic Achilles heel.

During every Super Rugby season we debate the test level performances of Super Rugby backrowers, only for the test season to come to a spluttering end with the realisation that it's the tight 5 who are the critical piece of forward play in test rugby.

Wallabies have always had someone like Hooper, Waugh or Pocock in the back-row earning those WR (World Rugby) player of the year nominations, I can't think of the last time a Wallaby lock or front rower received one.

If you're going to argue any area has been the achilles heel, it's the Wallabies tight 5.

 

[Misunderstood fan]

During every Super Rugby season we debate the test level performances of Super Rugby backrowers, only for the test season to come to a spluttering end with the realisation that it's the tight 5 who are the critical piece of forward play in test rugby.

If you're going to argue any area has been the achilles heel, it's the Wallabies tight 5.

Bell and Tupou fitness is key here.

 

[stillmissit]

During every Super Rugby season we debate the test level performances of Super Rugby backrowers, only for the test season to come to a spluttering end with the realisation that it's the tight 5 who are the critical piece of forward play in test rugby.

If you're going to argue any area has been the achilles heel, it's the Wallabies tight 5.

I would argue it is the fwds in total, although we have had a couple of decent hookers +Tupoa and Bell. The tight 5 win the ball and the backrow keeps it or turn the enemy over. Simplistic but it will do.

 

[stillmissit]

Another thing to take into account is that Carter is 6'2" 93kgs at 21. The other potential 10 I expected would step up this year is Jack Debreczeni but not seen much of him.

 

[HogansHeros]

Doesn't have to be the 10 but it does have to be someone. None of our other likely backline options kick, besides White, so... you want White taking spot kicks?

We could look for a kicking prop like we had in Dunning?

 

[stillmissit]

We could look for a kicking prop like we had in Dunning?

Has there ever been a prop who did all the kicks at goal?

 

[HogansHeros]

Has there ever been a prop who did all the kicks at goal?

Only the accidental ones

 

[TSR]

During every Super Rugby season we debate the test level performances of Super Rugby backrowers, only for the test season to come to a spluttering end with the realisation that it's the tight 5 who are the critical piece of forward play in test rugby.

Wallabies have always had someone like Hooper, Waugh or Pocock in the back-row earning those WR (World Rugby) (World Rugby) player of the year nominations, I can't think of the last time a Wallaby lock or front rower received one.

If you're going to argue any area has been the achilles heel, it's the Wallabies tight 5.

I’m not disagreeing with your concerns/observations around right 5 and our weakness there over the last 20 years. I absolutely agree.

But I think it’s clearly wrong to say we’ve always had an abundance of good backrowers. Unless you mean an abundance of good 7s, in which case I agree. All the way along we have had guys like Miller, Croft, Gill, Hodgeson, and even Waugh who were easily international standard (IMO) but who couldn’t get a gig because there were better players in front of them. What we’ve missed are the combinations of 8s & 6s do go with them. The Kefus, Cockbains, Gavin’s, Loanes, Shaw’s, Willie-Os, Tabuas, Finegans and Fardys. We haven’t had enough of them.

I’m also not disagreeing at all with the importance of the tight 5. I don’t agree either is less important the other. Last year one of our biggest issues was our breakdown work and, whilst the tight 5 remain the engine room here and provide the grunt it is the backrow who are the key players.

 

[Drew]

As far as Gordon kicking goals. He has been a goal kicker before, he’s a talented athlete. If he’s given a shot at 10 for the Wallabies, if he’s required to kick goals, he will practice them and hopefully do fine.

 

[stillmissit]

I’m not disagreeing with your concerns/observations around right 5 and our weakness there over the last 20 years. I absolutely agree.

But I think it’s clearly wrong to say we’ve always had an abundance of good backrowers. Unless you mean an abundance of good 7s, in which case I agree. All the way along we have had guys like Miller, Croft, Gill, Hodgeson, and even Waugh who were easily international standard (IMO) but who couldn’t get a gig because there were better players in front of them. What we’ve missed are the combinations of 8s & 6s do go with them. The Kefus, Cockbains, Gavin’s, Loanes, Shaw’s, Willie-Os, Tabuas, Finegans and Fardys. We haven’t had enough of them.

I’m also not disagreeing at all with the importance of the tight 5. I don’t agree either is less important the other. Last year one of our biggest issues was our breakdown work and, whilst the tight 5 remain the engine room here and provide the grunt it is the backrow who are the key players.

TSR, agree with you and I suggested in another thread that we should look to poor locks for big backrowers, AFL might offer something if we can get them young enough. 6 is a tough gig and we need someone to step up there. I would have preferred bobby v to 6 and Holloway to 8 but I guess that opportunity has flown along with a lack of focus on 6 & 8 - Has anyone noticed how little is spoken about these positions compared to NZ and SA.

 

[TSR]

TSR, agree with you and I suggested in another thread that we should look to poor locks for big backrowers, AFL might offer something if we can get them young enough. 6 is a tough gig and we need someone to step up there. I would have preferred bobby v to 6 and Holloway to 8 but I guess that opportunity has flown along with a lack of focus on 6 & 8 - Has anyone noticed how little is spoken about these positions compared to NZ and SA.

I guess the problem with Holloway, Valetini and Hooper is that you have no real on baller which hurt us last year.

Hooper’s last two games haven’t been the best, but I still think he is in the box seat for 7 and Valetini will be one of the other two. I know there is a priority around our 6 being a strong line out option, but I think last year shows somewhere in the pack we need 2-3 guys who have a real strength around winning the breakdown contest.

 

[Doritos Day]

Bell and Tupou fitness is key here.

For me the main concern this year is playing too many underdone players.

It's obviously a tough call to leave talent on the sideline.

Bell, Tupou, Kerevi and Cooper are all best XV players but how many can you start off minimal game time? England saw this play out with their Saracens contingent.

For this reason Arnold is essentially unselectable imo.

 

[wamberal]

I guess the problem with Holloway, Valetini and Hooper is that you have no real on baller which hurt us last year.

Hooper’s last two games haven’t been the best, but I still think he is in the box seat for 7 and Valetini will be one of the other two. I know there is a priority around our 6 being a strong line out option, but I think last year shows somewhere in the pack we need 2-3 guys who have a real strength around winning the breakdown contest.

Eddie is not emotionally invested in any of our players, I reckon. Which means that it will all come down to match performance, and their ability to meet Eddie's standards.

It would not surprise me if some sentimental favourites are out. Hooper might be one.

 

[TSR]

Eddie is not emotionally invested in any of our players, I reckon. Which means that it will all come down to match performance, and their ability to meet Eddie's standards.

It would not surprise me if some sentimental favourites are out. Hooper might be one.

Eddie might not be sentimental - but you don’t cast aside a 100+ test Wallaby, who two years ago was a world rugby player of the year nominee lightly.

Not saying he’ll get any favours - just that his experience and class will be highly valued.

 

[rodha]

A couple of years ago we had Pocock & Hooper in the back row because there weren’t enough test level backrowers to push one to the bench, and we consistently struggled to fill the 3rd spot, let along bench depth. We had a succession of guys like McMahon, Mumm, a rookie Hanigan, Dempsey, Salakai-Loto. Prior to that guys like Richard Brown, Ben McCalman, Ben Mowen and Dave Dennis

You're forgetting Scott Higginbotham, what an outstanding player, Wallabies won the 2011 Tri Nations with him at No.8, he was a big factor to their success 2010-2011 (Elsom, Pocock, Higginbotham) - a world class backrow coached by the outstanding David Nuicifora who was breakdown/forwards coach at the time, who's now leading Ireland to unprecedented success - everything comes back to Nuicifora.

 

[Rebel man]

Carter Gordon has to be considered for the rugby championship