Wallabies 2023

[Wallaby Man]

There have been a few players who earned their first Super Rugby contract at age 23+ in recent years. These would be the players I'm talking about. Jock Campbell, Hugh Sinclair, Mahe Vailanu etc.

People love the Phil Kearns being selected from Randwick 2nd grade to play for the Wallabies story but it's also true that prior to that he was in the Australian under 21s team. The idea that Bob Dwyer was the first person to notice his talent is a myth.

Vailanu played for the Rebels at 21

 

[stillmissit]

Dwyer's era is a tricky example as it was the still amateur, just becoming professional period. I'm not sure the jump in class of athlete was as much, such that other raw attributes counted equally, if not more. This is not to say that there probably exists many players with the raw material to be exceptional when provided the right support structures - training, coaching etc..

I'm also not sure we are getting the most out of our Islander population. In fact, I would like to see a complete review of talent identification and development but it has never happened before to my knowledge and I don't think it will happen now that the ARU will have a bucket full of borrowed money to play with.

 

[molman]

Moman, I would like to offer the argument that Rennie has brought into our talent discussions. He was only focused on the names we all knew and had been around the wallabies, with the injury problems he was forced to look outside and surprising to many but most probably not you or I, he unearthed talent that at another time of fewer injuries would never have got a chance.

True. Whilst I think the sport science has brought us a lot of quantifiable data on may aspects, I still think there are intangibles that it struggles with that mean that there is likely capacity for many players to bring something to the table. We see it all the time when some players (or even entire teams) seem to under-perform and others thrive.

I was listening to the podcast with Ben Alexander talking about the under-performance of the Brumbies around the 2011 period even though they had a stacked squad and the turn around in the proceeding years which illuminated how much is not just skill, fitness or capacity but other mental and cultural aspects.

 

[stillmissit]

BH, I had not heard of Mahe Vailanu so I looked him up and at age 20 he was playing for Melbourne rising and 21 for the Rebels.

 

[stillmissit]

Yeah but maybe just maybe, my Tahs need some fire in the second row lol

There's no maybe there Marce. It could stop them from being in the top few of Super Rugby this year.

 

[Braveheart81]

BH, I had not heard of Mahe Vailanu so I looked him up and at age 20 he was playing for Melbourne rising and 21 for the Rebels.

That was a bad example. He had a pro contract early then had a couple of years without one before getting another opportunity.

Connor Vest is one that only got a pro contract last year at age 27 for the Reds. He was certainly on the radar right through though playing a bunch of NRC.

 

[molman]

There's no maybe there Marce. It could stop them from being in the top few of Super Rugby this year.

I can only dream of someone with Skeleton's, Rory/Richie's frame being in the team, or even a player with a hard edge like Coleman.

 

[stillmissit]

True. Whilst I think the sport science has brought us a lot of quantifiable data on may aspects, I still think there are intangibles that it struggles with that mean that there is likely capacity for many players to bring something to the table. We see it all the time when some players (or even entire teams) seem to under-perform and others thrive.

I was listening to the podcast with Ben Alexander talking about the under-performance of the Brumbies around the 2011 period even though they had a stacked squad and the turn around in the proceeding years which illuminated how much is not just skill, fitness or capacity but other mental and cultural aspects.

England was in the same boat for what appeared several lifetimes, huge base to choose from and great facilities but not that great on match day. Jones and Borthwick changed that but it slipped back into average in the last couple of years.
Having a team of highly talented players but egos that are bumping heads isn't the ideal team environment. I think that was a part of Deans failure.

 

[stillmissit]

I can only dream of someone with Skeleton's, Rory/Richie's frame being in the team, or even a player with a hard edge like Coleman.

I'd take Coleman as he has something to prove in Australia. He started out great, got injured and struggled to get back to that level.

 

[molman]

That was a bad example. He had a pro contract early then had a couple of years without one before getting another opportunity.

Connor Vest is one that only got a pro contract last year at age 27 for the Reds. He was certainly on the radar right through though playing a bunch of NRC.

I still feel it's the players we never capture or expose to the game in the first place, or the ones the have brief brushes with Rugby Union. I'm actually surprised that the RA don't push 7's harder as a gateway for attracting more talent. Some great prospective locks end up in AFL.

Anyway, bringing it back to the Wallabies 2023, I think this SuperRugby season is the opportunity for players to put their hand up as a possible bolter or to cement their spots.

I'm keen to see some of the injured players who've been in and around the Wallabies return and hopefully have a great season - players like Pone Fa'amausili, Josh Kemeny, James O'Connor, Harry Johnson-Holmes, Alex Mafi, Rob Leota, Lachlan Swinton, Angus Bell, Izaia Perese, Liam Wright.

I'm also keen so see the plethora of younger lads step up. The likes of Jordan Petaia (hard to believe how young he still is), Will Harris & Harrison, Tom Hooper, Josh Flook, the Lonergan's, Carter Gordon .... Bayley Kuenzle etc.. etc.. all have a blinder of a season.

... I also hope Reece Hodge has a good season. He's had some real hot and cold periods the last couple of years, but I actually think he brings a lot (and really is the ultimate utility player a little similar to England's Elliot Daly). I think it's actually taken him some time to get back into some form after his knee injury in 2021.

 

[dillyboy]

Don't forget Borthwick was also Eddie's assistant with Japan in 2015, so he deserves credit also.

Jones was 54 in 2015 with Japan and England started to decline as Jones entered his late 50's, which supports my argument that head coaches achieve their best success before they reach their late 50's, once they get past that stage they ideally move into a technical advisory role (which is how Fisher has managed to remain useful & effective to the Brumbies, without getting in the way of younger coaches coming through) as head coaching is incredibly demanding and is a becoming an increasingly younger man's role, you can't be an retirement aged old geezer in the head role these days because head coaches are primarily motivators, energizers & stimulators (which is different to when Jones first started coaching) - just look at a guy like Razor, he just gushes with enthusiasm and energy. The way I see it is ideally having a younger coach (40-55) as head coach with an older guy like Fisher in an advisory/technical assistant role. The energy and zest required for the head role (as a motivator, vision setter and face of the organization) is completely different to a technical focused role. At this stage, Eddie is going to be more effective as a technical coach - not a head coach. There's an argument that he's always been better suited to technical assistant than head coach, because his biggest weakness has always been his man-management, which absolutely must be the biggest strength of a head coach in 2023.

So is having a "younger coach" an exclusive to Rugby thing??

There's a guy called Wayne Bennett getting around in the NRL who seems to be going ok for an old bloke........

 

[Mr Pilfer]

On another front who believes that Charlie Gamble can get in front of Hooper for #7 by the time the world cup is here? Will be interesting to see what the Tahs do to start the season. Or is anyone backing McReight or Samu instead?

 

[Slim 293]

Jones was 54 in 2015 with Japan and England started to decline as Jones entered his late 50's, which supports my argument that head coaches achieve their best success before they reach their late 50's

RWC World Rugby coach of the year in 2017...

Six Nations Champions in 2016, 2017 and 2020...

RWC Runners up in 2019...

That is some spectacular decline...

Sorry, I forgot that was all Steve Borthwick...

Maybe we should we do Graham Henry next?

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

On another front who believes that Charlie Gamble can get in front of Hooper for #7 by the time the world cup is here? Will be interesting to see what the Tahs do to start the season. Or is anyone backing McReight or Samu instead?

I think he potentially could shade him as a player but Hoopers position may maintain his spot. I think both are at the required standard. Gamble and McReight are a great pair to take us past 2023.

 

[rodha]

RWC World Rugby coach of the year in 2017...

Six Nations Champions in 2016, 2017 and 2020...

RWC Runners up in 2019...

That is some spectacular decline...

Sorry, I forgot that was all Steve Borthwick...

Maybe we should we do Graham Henry next?

Not exactly a great comparison, Graham Henry had Steve Hansen & Wayne Smith, essentially as co-coaches, each with an equal footing of influence on the team. Jones is going to risk burning through quality assistant coaches (like Fisher) and be only left with unqualified yes-men, which is exactly what happened in England when Borthwick decided he'd had enough of Eddie's challenging personality.

 

[molman]

Jones is going to risk burning through quality assistant coaches (like Fisher) and be only left with unqualified yes-men, which is exactly what happened in England when Borthwick decided he'd had enough of Eddie's challenging personality.

Do you have something to support this statement about Borthwick?, or does it just fit the narrative? Because one could speculate that the fact Borthwick worked with Eddie in Japan, for what around 3 years and then was happy to not only work with him again with England, but for around another 5 years would seem to indicate a positive working relationship. It couldn't be that he left to work at Leicester because it presented a new challenge, increased pay packet or a number of other reasons such as a project he had ownership over that have nothing to do with his relationship to Eddie or the dynamics between them?

From all reports, Borthwick is a similarly hard (almost obsessive) worker akin to Eddie, which may speak to the challenge Eddie seemed to have finding someone who worked as well with him (ie. the quick succession of assistants).

Also, Laurie Fisher isn't on of the Wallabies Assistant coaches in fact, he was only brought in on a interim basis, in part because of Matt Taylor leaving last year and is still with the Brumbies. Only Dan McKellar I believe is officially still an assistant coach for the Wallabies with Scott Wisemantel resigning the beginning of this year.

 

[Silverado]

There have been a few players who earned their first Super Rugby contract at age 23+ in recent years. These would be the players I'm talking about. Jock Campbell, Hugh Sinclair, Mahe Vailanu etc.

People love the Phil Kearns being selected from Randwick 2nd grade to play for the Wallabies story but it's also true that prior to that he was in the Australian under 21s team. The idea that Bob Dwyer was the first person to notice his talent is a myth.

And who was Randwick's 1st grade hooker?

 

[Braveheart81]

And who was Randwick's 1st grade hooker?

Eddie Jones who was also the Waratahs hooker at the time.

 

[RugbyReg]

Eddie Jones who was also the Waratahs hooker at the time.

to be fair, Kearns had played for the Waratahs before the Wallabies. He wasn't like Tim Horan who played for Australia before he played for QLD.

 

[rodha]