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Wallabies 2023

Running_rugby_1954

Ron Walden (29)
We do have cattle though? That’s the point of picking those players. If you agree our style is more similar to NZ and they lost to Ire & Fra what’s the point in trying to replicate that?

Only NZ and Eng have knocked us out of the RWC since 1995. All 3 times England monstered our pack.

Who are we likely to play in the quarters again? Who dominated NZ last RWC in the semi?

Not beefing up the pack could be an incredibly naive thing to do this RWC. Thankfully I have faith Eddie is aware of current Test rugby trends and what works and doesn’t.
We really need to reimagine what a Wallabies pack could be with just brute force. Some combination of the biggest meanest guys we have - Skelton, Tupou, Holloway, Valetini, Arnold, Frost, Gleeson, Bell, Leota, Phillip, Rodda and the hooker with the best throw. *I will add to this Sio and Slipper. I added way more than one pack, so it’s bench guys too.

I’m not saying this is perfect, but rugby is all about winning the collisions and this will certainly get us on the road to that.
 

Brumby Runner

Jason Little (69)
Isn't Cane the current AB skipper? Why wouldn't he play?

My point is that this fetish on size and the power game isn't going to work for us. Australia trying to emulate Ireland or France with the cattle we have isn't going to work. I brought up the SA pack size because you used Kolisi to illustrate a some point.

Honestly, I'm done with you on this. You aren't going to change your mind, and I'm not going to change mine.
I think there is another reason why Michael Hooper might miss out on at least some tests. If the Wallabies start both Skelton and Valetini, and the coaches would probably be out of their collective minds not to do so in the important games, then it would be beneficial to have a genuine lineout jumper in 7 to complement the jumping lock (Frost imo) and No 6 (Holloway imo).

I would go with a pack consisting of,

Slipper, Lonergan/Porecki, Ala'alatoa
Frost, Skelton
Holloway, Wright
Valetini

Bench : Porecki/Lonergan, Bell, Tupou, Neville/Philip, Gleeson/Samu.

Bell probably to start if fit. I don't think Richie Arnold will play the important games due inexperience at this level.
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Yeah, we can have different opinions on the 7 but height and a proper jumper is a must there, Valetini isn't that quick off the ground so our 7 is likely to be our 3rd option, so Wright/Gleeson/Wilkin.
 

Derpus

Nathan Sharpe (72)
You know it’s entirely possible in 2023 he actually is considered too small and previous performances in Test rugby are irrelevant? The trend of players getting bigger is a real thing, Test packs are more than 50kg heavier than they were 10 years ago. Every year the average has increased and going to lose power as he ages.

That’s just size, then there’s the difference in how the game is being and played and refereed which changes the effectiveness of pilfers. The ‘no hands on the ground’ interpretation has definitely nullified geniune fetchers effectiveness.

There’s a reason Kolisi is favoured over Kwagga Smith who would be the only other small 7 in Test rugby. Who else is performing well at Test level as a small 7 right now?
Ah yes the heft and might of the enormous Brad Wilkin (104kg 1.87cm) and Siya Kolisi (105kg and 1.88cm) against those puny undersized weaklings McReight (102kg 1.84cm) and Hooper (101kg 1.82cm).

Do you really think 3 to 5cm makes a significant difference in the lineout? Or the 2-3kg makes a significant difference at the ruck?

If it was a 10kg difference then sure. But this is between 1-2%.

For reference Kwagga Smith is listed as 91kg.
 

Lightblue

Arch Winning (36)
In light of Reg's work rate stats (carries, turnovers, tackles per minute), where Wilson was 2nd, what specific areas do you feel he needs to improve? Inherently, to be in a position to make carries, turnovers, and tackles, you need to be putting in a hell of a lot of work off the ball.

Likewise, with his work in contact - he's averaging 6.2m per carry, leads the competition for total carries (three forwards in the top 10), and is third in the competition for total metres (the only forward in the top 10). The vast majority of his carries are to the line, not beating defends and making 15m+ breaks, so they can't be padding his stats too much.

Valetini and Havili, the two other forwards in the top 10 for total carries, don't feature in the metres top 10 list, so I can't do the metres per carry calculation for them, which would be good for some perspective. @RugbyReg you don't have those stats on hand by chance?

Not having a go, just trying to understand this viewpoint.
Well based on those statistics it shows that they aren’t always what gets someone in a side. Wilson is a good player no doubt and I’m not sure what else he has to do to get back in the RWC mix?
 

stillmissit

Peter Johnson (47)
Well based on those statistics it shows that they aren’t always what gets someone in a side. Wilson is a good player no doubt and I’m not sure what else he has to do to get back in the RWC mix?
True, if you're big and average then you ain't gonna make it the difference is what they do with it. Wilson is a good 8 but it is the impact he has at that level that counts. If the game gets loose then he can do some damage, so apart from a bench spot there really is no place for him ATM in test rugby.
That could all change of course but it won't be this year.
 

hammertimethere

Trevor Allan (34)
Wilson is a workhorse who runs good lines and tackles everything but he suffers from the issue of (at Test level) being decent at a few things but not a standout at any particular area relevant to his position (in 2023, he's still young and could develop any or all of these in the future).
- Doesn't carry or hit as violently at the gainline or in post contact metres as Valetini or Gleeson,
- Doesn't clean out or pilfer as well as Hooper, McReight, Samu
- Not as good a lineout operator or have the same awesome short passing skills at Holloway

His best strengths are his offloading and the lines he runs but he handicaps himself with poor ball security and option taking at times.

I think his best chance to sneak in the Cup squad is as a back up for Holloway if Leota is too short of a gallop but to do that he'd have to show that he can be good as a lineout jumper (where the Reds have historically gone a lot of 5 man lineouts and used him in the midfield). I don't think he fits in as a 1st string starting backrower or a bench backrower (you'd take Samu, Gleeson or Wilkin etc. as your 20 if Skelton is on the bench).
 

Derpus

Nathan Sharpe (72)

Am I reading this wrong or has RA effectively ruled out having Rory Arnold come home because they refused to cover the insurance required? If he played a full season of Super Rugby and the test season it would probably come out at between $200,000-$300,000.

Isn't that basically a bargain?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
If someone is on loan you would also pay their salary for that period wouldn't you?

So the insurance cost might have only been $100k but the salary required for someone on $1.5m a season was probably $600k or more.
 

Tazzmania

Bob Loudon (25)
If someone is on loan you would also pay their salary for that period wouldn't you?

So the insurance cost might have only been $100k but the salary required for someone on $1.5m a season was probably $600k or more.
I would assume it would depend on the terms and conditions in the loan agreement.

There could be two possible scenarios:

1) The club loaning the player pays the full salary or

2) They decide on an amicable split as the team loaning out the player may see it as an option to at least reduce their said wage bill to the player rather than paying him to sit around.
 

Brumby Runner

Jason Little (69)
I would assume it would depend on the terms and conditions in the loan agreement.

There could be two possible scenarios:

1) The club loaning the player pays the full salary or

2) They decide on an amicable split as the team loaning out the player may see it as an option to at least reduce their said wage bill to the player rather than paying him to sit around.
Not really a shot Tazzy, but can you clarify the "loaning" and "loaning out" meanings please.

Perhaps one should be "lending" and the other "borrowing"?
 

rugbyAU

Dick Tooth (41)
Kellaway or Wright for fullback? Kellaway probably the safer option but Wright has had more time there this season
 

Namerican

Bill Watson (15)
You know it’s entirely possible in 2023 he actually is considered too small and previous performances in Test rugby are irrelevant? The trend of players getting bigger is a real thing, Test packs are more than 50kg heavier than they were 10 years ago. Every year the average has increased and going to lose power as he ages.

That’s just size, then there’s the difference in how the game is being and played and refereed which changes the effectiveness of pilfers. The ‘no hands on the ground’ interpretation has definitely nullified geniune fetchers effectiveness.

There’s a reason Kolisi is favoured over Kwagga Smith who would be the only other small 7 in Test rugby. Who else is performing well at Test level as a small 7 right now?

There's Kwagga, who you mentioned. Justin Tipuric is smaller and has been good until recently, but that's mainly due to his age (35) rather than his size. Hamish Watson is also a starting 7 in form and made the Lions. None of them are much bigger than Hooper. So that's 4 starting smaller 7s i the top 12-ish teams.

As you said though, most teams are going with the bigger is better approach. Same as a small backline player - you can get selected, but you are going to have to be exceptional in multiple areas (speed, kicking, high ball, defense etc.).
 
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