Wallabies 2021

[TSR]

I’ll add to this a bit. It seems that being an annoying, angry pest is sometimes considered part and parcel of being a good 9. But I don’t think that holds true.

Genia wasn’t as good as a player when he got caught up in niggle. Neither was Phipps and neither is White. TJ Perenara is a niggler and pest, but I don’t think that is him at his best either. Going back I always though Gregan deteriorated as a player the more he got caught up in niggle. Aaron Smith is probably the only one who seems to be able to niggle/bustle on the move without it detracting too much from his own game. TJ is probably reasonable and Phipps played better angry to a point but too often went too far and lost his composure.

All of these guys play their best when they are controlling the tempo. Generally they are better at pace, but with the awareness to take speed out of the game when they needed to. Genia & White for mine are far better players when they shut their mouths and played.

 

[PhilClinton]

I am sceptical of reports that players have suddenly become far better players OS then they were when they were playing here. I’m sure there are exceptions (I would be very interested to see Skelton back here), but by and large I can’t recall too many players who have come back and shown genuine improvement.

Yep I agree. I think some of the improvements seen and heard about are simply players actually being in environments where they can thrive. For example both Latu and JOC (James O'Connor) left Oz with some naughty habits and reputations. Reports of them improving overseas can probably be partially attributed to being away from their standard group of mates, which was clearly breeding negative behaviour.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think TSR and Phil are mostly right here. Players don't become more talented, but some of the rough edges in their game or personalities can be smoothed out on the basis of a stint outside of their normal environment. Essentially they become more mature as players and people in some cases. I've not seen overwhelming evidence of players coming back to OZ as better, but I'm happy to acknowledge that it's definitely helped some blokes.

 

[molman]

I think TSR and Phil are mostly right here. Players don't become more talented, but some of the rough edges in their game or personalities can be smoothed out on the basis of a stint outside of their normal environment. Essentially they become more mature as players and people in some cases. I've not seen overwhelming evidence of players coming back to OZ as better, but I'm happy to acknowledge that it's definitely helped some blokes.

I think it's always hard to draw sweeping conclusion or to seperate the fact that some players just grow up irrespective of geography. That said, exposure to different systems, different environments and potentially being taken out of your comfort zone must be beneficial to some of the players. As much as global rugby seems to be drifting closer (particularly with so many AU/NZ & SA coaches up north), nuances still exist between the countries and comps in terms of how they approach the game.

 

[Adam84]

I’ve also seen players like Leroy Houston and Lei Tomiki come back to Australia with big reputations based on their European performances, for them to not live up to the same standard. Quade Cooper was never the same player after his stint in Europe, although arguably his decline started before he left. Rocky Elsom was hailed as the best player in Europe during his stint over there, but never replicated those performances on his return to Australia.

I think playing in Europe and the style of rugby suits some players more then others, and for some it gives them a chance to develop skills they hadn’t in Australia, especially for some of the younger playmakers who aren’t getting regular game time. But i tend to agree with TBH, i haven't seen any overwhelming evidence that playing in Europe makes players any better, outside of their existing physical development and mental maturity trajectory.

 

[Drew]

Players seem to lose a lot of their deficiencies when you don’t see them play regularly.

 

[TSR]

Absence does make the heart grow fonder

 

[Drew]

I’ve heard nick phipps is killing it wherever he is.

 

[Dctarget]

Explains why all our locks are overseas.

 

[Adam84]

Does it also highlight where Australian Rugby is going wrong in terms of prioritising player retention?

Up to last year, 3 of the highest paid wallabies were Pocock, Hooper and Folau. According to those lists, the 7 and 15 sit pretty low down the priority list.

 

[dru]

Does it also highlight where Australian Rugby is going wrong in terms of prioritising player retention?

Up to last year, 3 of the highest paid wallabies were Pocock, Hooper and Folau. According to those lists, the 7 and 15 sit pretty low down the priority list.

Yes and no. Pocock, Hooper and Folau were clearly world class and would attract world class wages irrespective of their number’s position on those charts.

OTOH it puts some context on Rodda. Hopefully LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) and Phillip are being considered with this in mind.

 

[rugboy]

That wouldn't suggest BPA is going to be well paid in France. Surprised they are consistently valued so poorly.

 

[Adam84]

Yes and no. Pocock, Hooper and Folau were clearly world class and would attract world class wages irrespective of their number’s position on those charts.

OTOH it puts some context on Rodda. Hopefully LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) and Phillip are being considered with this in mind.

I'm not disputing that those players are/were world class, but there are other guys like Skelton and Arnold who could be considered world class as well, and as far as we know they were never in the top tier of highest paid wallabies, despite been in positions which demand the highest wages internationally.

 

[dru]

I'm not disputing that those players are/were world class, but there are other guys like Skelton and Arnold who could be considered world class as well, and as far as we know they were never in the top tier of highest paid wallabies, despite been in positions which demand the highest wages internationally.

Yeah, maybe. Personally I wouldn’t have described either Arnold or Skelton in the same class as Hooper, Pocock or Folau. They showed promise in relation to world class, but I’m not convinced that they proved it in Australia. Exactly the sort of guys that you’d expect to consider Europe.

 

[Drew]

Is there a similar graph showing Australian, NZ and SA average wage by position? I think the problem is also, we need “entertaining” players to stay here as marketing to attract crowd in a more competitive sporting market.

 

[KevinO]

Is there a similar graph showing Australian, NZ and SA average wage by position? I think the problem is also, we need “entertaining” players to stay here as marketing to attract crowd in a more competitive sporting market.

But maybe the NH is onto something, the players getting pain more do the hard work to allow the others to do the flashy stuff.

 

[Drew]

Agreed. It’s a trap we seem to have fallen into. If we pay the piggies too little they’ll go elsewhere and the “entertainers” will have to try more miracle plays with a bad platform to justify their paycheques.

 

[Tomikin]

But maybe the NH is onto something, the players getting pain more do the hard work to allow the others to do the flashy stuff.

Or maybe there not considering that the SH has won how many of the world cups between us ?

 

[Dctarget]

Or maybe there not considering that the SH has won how many of the world cups between us ?

Australia really being carried a bit there.

 

[Dctarget]

Surprised that loose heads and hookers are valued so little.

Teams place an emphasis on fly half and locks, can't say Wallabies have been flush there of late.