Wallabies 2021

[liquor box]

Hookers, there's some good young un's coming along, BPA's a lose more so for the Reds then the Wallabies, I dont see him as heads and shoulders above Fainga'a and Uelese just in better form in tests this year.

But we have Lonergan, McInerney at the Brumbies, Mafi at the Reds, Horton at the Tah's all pretty good Hookers who by 2023 being the Wallabies 2.

If lineout ability is used to determine value then he probably still owes the Reds some money from Super Rugby.

His test form was fine.

 

[upthereds#!]

Who would have offered Latu big money prior to the 2019 test season and RWC though? People would have thought RA had rocks in their head if they'd done that yet that was the timing required to retain him before he signed with Stade Francais.

We do still need hookers but there is no one who you would bank on being THE GUY and offering him big money now thinking he is pretty certain be be the mainstay at 2 between now and the 2023 RWC. That's part of the problem. No one is obviously good enough to take that punt on and I don't think we are better served by just picking one for the hell of it.

I have a feeling we are saying the same thing. I completely agree.

I am glad that in time for WC prep, all 4 will be off contract, plus any smokey that has come through, so that the time and money can be put into whoever the Coaching group at the time wants going into the tournament.

 

[Zero_Cool]

I really hate using Latu's RWC form and saying 'that's it he's our best hooker ever' (obvious over exaggeration), he had 3 games that *could* count as good games - Fiji, Wales, and QF England; games against Georgia and Uruguay hardly can be counted as 'oh he's playing well'; but even if we count his games against Georgia and Uruguay that's 5 games. He had 5 good games.
Sure he's been playing in okay in France, but he's not in significantly better form than Folau Fainga'a or BPA.

 

[Froggy]

What it's really about ZC, is the ability to step up to the next level. Latu certainly demonstrated that. Of our curent hookers, Faainga has certainly been our best at Super level, however has struggled to make the transition to test rugby. BPA, on the other hand, I would argue has made that transition pretty well.

 

[TSR]

What it's really about ZC, is the ability to step up to the next level. Latu certainly demonstrated that. Of our curent hookers, Faainga has certainly been our best at Super level, however has struggled to make the transition to test rugby. BPA, on the other hand, I would argue has made that transition pretty well.

Latu has Froggy - but I’d argue he hasn’t done that consistently. He deserves credit for his World Cup form but, prior to that, I would have said he is as anything but a proven performer. He played as many poor games as he did good. He was a poor thrower, unfit and often ill-disciplined at both test & Super Rugby level.

None of the three hookers used in this years Tri Nations have been emphatically great in their performances, but neither have they been out of their depth.

I’ve got no idea what Latu’s form with Staid Francais is like - if he has managed to keep playing consistently good rugby then great. At his best, he is very good. Lots of guys become better with maturity & experience. Hopefully one of the Super rugby teams can lure him back. But personally I don’t think he should be used as some sort of a yardstick based on a relatively small sample of his overall games.

 

[Members Section]

What it's really about ZC, is the ability to step up to the next level. Latu certainly demonstrated that. Of our curent hookers, Faainga has certainly been our best at Super level, however has struggled to make the transition to test rugby. BPA, on the other hand, I would argue has made that transition pretty well.

Im not 100% sold on BPA, FF (Folau Fainga'a) & JU could consider themselves a tad unlucky. However this move I personally believe is the best one for his person & our 2023 rwc campaign. If we can get a few of our players in specific systems they can improve tenfold. Look at Nic White was prob our best player this yr & there is no way you would have predicted that before he went north. Super Rugby is not best pathway for everyone.

 

[TSR]

For what it’s worth, I reached almost the opposite conclusion.

I though White was decent enough. I wouldn’t rate him as our best by any stretch, but he was one of a group of players who had some good games and not so good games.

My takeaways from Nic White -
- I thought he seemed to be very much the same player who left. He always had some good parts to his game, but isn’t one who seems able to dominate. He’s a capable test player, and always has been IMO, but he isn’t a world beater
- he also reinforced to me that we shouldn’t get carried away with reports of the form and/or improvement of players playing in Europe
- he benefits from the fact that the main competitors for his spot are either similiarly unremarkable (Gordon & Powell) or have some key work ons (McDermott).

 

[Members Section]

For what it’s worth, I reached almost the opposite conclusion.

I though White was decent enough. I wouldn’t rate him as our best by any stretch, but he was one of a group of players who had some good games and not so good games.

My takeaways from Nic White -
- I thought he seemed to be very much the same player who left. He always had some good parts to his game, but isn’t one who seems able to dominate. He’s a capable test player, and always has been IMO, but he isn’t a world beater
- he also reinforced to me that we shouldn’t get carried away with reports of the form and/or improvement of players playing in Europe
- he benefits from the fact that the main competitors for his spot are either similiarly unremarkable (Gordon & Powell) or have some key work ons (McDermott).

I see what your saying about the gulf between him & the pack but I think in all but 1 game he controlled our direction really well we just really struggled finish but I think that comes down a bit to the 10 & I dont think he could do that pre premiership stint.

An Exeter fan said to me "He's like a poor mans Faf de klerk" but unfortunately for us he doesn't have Handre Pollard outside him come wallabies games.

 

[Rebels3]

White played 9.5 the whole season because of the lack of quality at 10.

Hodge and JOC (James O'Connor) have many holes in their 10 game play, be it JOC (James O'Connor) been a poor kicker or Hodge not been an organizer.

 

[dru]

White played 9.5 the whole season because of the lack of quality at 10.

Hodge and JOC (James O'Connor) have many holes in their 10 game play, be it JOC (James O'Connor) been a poor kicker or Hodge not been an organizer.

Genia could play 9.5, White not at all.

 

[Froggy]

I agree with TSR. White has been okay, but IMO that’s all. McDermott looks the future, perhaps just not ready to start yet. Powell an Gordon are sound super rugby 9’s, but don’t offer enough at test level. It’s probably a position where we are a bit skinny at the moment

 

[RugbyReg]

such a shame that our game has reached such a state that one of the most exciting attacking 9s we've seen for a long time is deemed not good enough because he box kicking game isn't up to it.

 

[dru]

I did not say that White was not OK and in fact he has in part been excellent. He just is not a 9.5 as claimed.

White’s game deteriorated as he tried to take more responsibility to make things happen. His sniping can be better than good, he has easily the best box in Australia, I actually love his lip and constant reminder to the ref and opposition pigs, he tackles well.

White’s delivery can be great, but often fell apart as the forwards were controlled to provide slow ball. “OK, that was slow, let’s just take some time to re-set” is logical in context. Just not when it becomes repetitive. He also ended up taking way too many steps before the pass - which if combined with sniping might have been interesting, but that then didnt happen either.

Passing accuracy is another matter, can be good, but consistently when the going gets s tough.

JOC (James O'Connor) had nothing to do with White’s performance. Without reviewing the games, my gut reaction is similar with Hodge though the strategy around delivery was different then - Hodge made few passes for a 10 but the backline worked mostly.

White is an interesting figure. On one hand I could see the logic of making him Captain. On the other I can only nod my head with Reg.

@Reg, right or wrong Rennie has a stated target for kicking in his game plan with the half being a major contributor. Tate should well and truly have gotten the mail. Let’s see what he does with it. I understand the logic of a good coach needing to adapt his strategy and plan around the talent available. But an excellent player with world class potential may also need to adapt to fit a coaches intentions.

 

[TSR]

I think McDermott will get there soon enough Reg. He can kick, he just doesn’t tend to do it so much.

Given he is mostly going to box kick from his own end it is something I think he can do a lot more off without taking away too much from what he is already good at. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rennie also wants him to improve his left to right pass a bit too.

I am hoping that Rennie is taking something of a ‘tough love’ approach with McDermott - holding him back a bit until he irons out a couple of these issues. If he does - he’ll then be very capable of being a World XV level half.

 

[TSR]

The initial point made by Members Section is worth revisiting IMO.

He used White as an example of how a stint overseas can benefit a player’s development and argued it was a good move for BPA.

I don’t think the evidence is that convincing.

I don’t think Nic White has returned a greatly improved player (and that is not to suggest he isn’t a good player) and I don’t think many others have returned better either. Maybe there are some additional benefits for tight 5 players? With players leaving a lot younger now, some level of improvement should be expected anyway.

I am sceptical of reports that players have suddenly become far better players OS then they were when they were playing here. I’m sure there are exceptions (I would be very interested to see Skelton back here), but by and large I can’t recall too many players who have come back and shown genuine improvement.

 

[Tomikin]

The initial point made by Members Section is worth revisiting IMO.

He used White as an example of how a stint overseas can benefit a player’s development and argued it was a good move for BPA.

I don’t think the evidence is that convincing.

I don’t think Nic White has returned a greatly improved player (and that is not to suggest he isn’t a good player) and I don’t think many others have returned better either. Maybe there are some additional benefits for tight 5 players? With players leaving a lot younger now, some level of improvement should be expected anyway.

I am sceptical of reports that players have suddenly become far better players OS then they were when they were playing here. I’m sure there are exceptions (I would be very interested to see Skelton back here), but by and large I can’t recall too many players who have come back and shown genuine improvement.

I tend to agree, Nic White was always a very good player with a sharp pass and a good kicking game, he went there and was a appreciated more then he was here, his come back and people are more willing to give him a chance.. Bias plays alot in it.

 

[molman]

such a shame that our game has reached such a state that one of the most exciting attacking 9s we've seen for a long time is deemed not good enough because he box kicking game isn't up to it.

Echoing something as fact doesn't make it fact. Could be more too it than a subpar box kick that is keeping McDermott from starting. Just saying.

I agree with TSR, I think he'll get there.

 

[wamberal]

My take on Tate is that he needs to toughen up a bit, get a bit of that old fashioned half-back mongrel in him, start annoying the opposition a bit.

 

[Members Section]

Echoing something as fact doesn't make it fact. Could be more too it than a subpar box kick that is keeping McDermott from starting. Just saying.

I agree with TSR, I think he'll get there.

Prob didnt help the system he came through the directive was never kick it lol

 

[TSR]

I dunno about Tate needing to toughen up.

Tate McDermott is a strong defender and has no problems pushing back when he is targeted with niggle. He seems to have no problems getting involved in contact in and around the breakdown.

He mightn’t get in the oppositions face as much as some, but I don’t see how that is detracting from his performance at all.

Personally I felt his form warranted more opportunity then he got, but I guess I am trying to understand the rationale behind his ommission. Personally I doubt either physicality or lack of mongrel were issues.

Without meaning to put the spotlight back on White he missed a number of critical tackles and is not overly a strong defender so if those things were factors I feel White would have been dropped - regardless of how angry he might get off the ball.