Wallabies 2020

[barbarian]

I think it's best to approach the coach search with an idea of the skills/background we want, and find someone who best fits.

I'd love someone with international head coach experience (something we haven't had in a coach since I think Bob Dwyer in his second stint). I'd like someone with a demonstrated ability playing fast, running rugby, but also a tactical nous to change things up to suit the opposition or conditions. I'd like someone who is fairly open and honest, who can foster a good relationship with the players.

Of the candidates thrown about, I think Jamie Joseph fits the bill perfectly. Jake White and Eddie Jones also work, but I have a lingering uneasiness about both considering they left our shores on unfriendly terms.

Dave Rennie seems a good coach too, but are we mad to be continuing with our 'successful Super coach' formula? It's a bit simplistic to boil that down to why we hired Knuckles, Deans, McKenzie and Cheika, but that certainly was the common denominator in all of those choices.

The other issue of course is whether any of these blokes are available and/or willing to do the job. And I've got no idea as to what the answer to that question is for any of them.
.

 

[cyclopath]

Said player has been getting away with on and off field murder for a decade. Why *wouldnt* he think it ok to do whatever feels good at the time?

Indeed, that is the point.

 

[barbarian]

Said player has been getting away with on and off field murder for a decade. Why *wouldnt* he think it ok to do whatever feels good at the time?

I mean, Kurtley murdering someone off the field was bad enough, but to do it ON the field? Now that is something we shouldn't have tolerated. And yet here we are.

He's got a nice burst of pace though, you have to admit.
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[The_Brown_Hornet]

go and have a look in the other thread. I've nominated heaps of blokes.

None of whom are supposedly good enough as they haven't coached internationally/not a kiwi/not a south African apparently.

I can't quite recall which international team Rennie has coached though. But nonetheless he's the best in the world.

Which other thread?

 

[cyclopath]

I think it's best to approach the coach search with an idea of the skills/background we want, and find someone who best fits.

I'd love someone with international head coach experience (something we haven't had in a coach since I think Bob Dwyer in his second stint). I'd like someone with a demonstrated ability playing fast, running rugby, but also a tactical nous to change things up to suit the opposition or conditions. I'd like someone who is fairly open and honest, who can foster a good relationship with the players.

Of the candidates thrown about, I think Jamie Joseph fits the bill perfectly. Jake White and Eddie Jones also work, but I have a lingering uneasiness about both considering they left our shores on unfriendly terms.

Dave Rennie seems a good coach too, but are we mad to be continuing with our 'successful Super coach' formula? It's a bit simplistic to boil that down to why we hired Knuckles, Deans, McKenzie and Cheika, but that certainly was the common denominator in all of those choices.

The other issue of course is whether any of these blokes are available and/or willing to do the job. And I've got no idea as to what the answer to that question is for any of them.
.

It sounds like the exhaustive search through the carpark at Moore Park has been done already, and they found Dave Rennie had set up.........

 

[Brumbieman]

I've sold White short. I thought he was older than he is. If the process is still genuinely open and he is interested, he should be considered.

He still wouldn't be my choice but his recent CV is not a lot worse than Rennie's and his career CV is better (obviously the 2007 RWC win).

HC/Team overseer/manager - JW

Forwards - Lord Laurie - Look at his alumni list of forwards that were rookies or nobodies before he turned them into test stars.

Attack - Rennie

Defence - anyone but Grey

Skills - Byrne (our skills have certainly improved since he came in)

Benton - S&C



AND THEN FOR FUCK SAKE HIRE A GOOD SPORTS PSYCHOLOGIST!



JW oversees everything with Rennie on a succession plan to ensure continuity with the program, AND to make sure we don't throw another Kiwi coach to the wolves and waste him when his lack of test rugby experience slows down the dream of him turning us around as quickly as EJ (Eddie Jones) did with England.

Rennie to learn JW's tricks of the trade for a few years then take over - he might have a moment of clarity if someone said to him - 'we want you, but we want you to leave on a different note to the last two lads. JW has a shitload of tricks to teach you, do a couple more years apprenticing him then the gig is yours and you'll have a much higher chance of succeeding"

Of that group - 2 are currently signed, one is impending by all accounts - leaving JW (would certainly take it if he was offered something) and Fischer.

Use Folau's millions to hire those last two and a good shrink, and let them nurture this current pack/backline stars and all the one's going to hit the scene in a year or two.

 

[Braveheart81]

There's no way RA have the budget to hire a person they are looking at for head coach as an assistant.

I'd guess that part of the interest in Rennie is that he is cheaper than some of the other options like Jake White potentially.

The amounts not paid to Folau are irrelevant. It's a different pool of money. RA is obliged to spend a certain percentage on player payments per their collective bargaining agreement.

 

[Froggy]

Re Beale's chip. Yes, it's indefensible, but plenty of players do something crazy on the spur of the moment, under pressure, or trying to create something magical playing catch-up. Like throwing a long cut-out pass behind your own try line, only to have the opposition fall on it and score, and he's considered one of the greatest wingers the game has produced!!

 

[RedsHappy]

I think it's best to approach the coach search with an idea of the skills/background we want, and find someone who best fits.

I'd love someone with international head coach experience (something we haven't had in a coach since I think Bob Dwyer in his second stint). I'd like someone with a demonstrated ability playing fast, running rugby, but also a tactical nous to change things up to suit the opposition or conditions. I'd like someone who is fairly open and honest, who can foster a good relationship with the players.

Of the candidates thrown about, I think Jamie Joseph fits the bill perfectly. Jake White and Eddie Jones also work, but I have a lingering uneasiness about (1) both considering they left our shores on unfriendly terms.

(2) Dave Rennie seems a good coach too, but are we mad to be continuing with our 'successful Super coach' formula? It's a bit simplistic to boil that down to why we hired Knuckles, Deans, McKenzie and Cheika, but that certainly was the common denominator in all of those choices.

The other issue of course is whether any of these blokes are available and/or willing to do the job. And I've got no idea as to what the answer to that question is for any of them.
.

Re (1). I would not fret over that. These departure were some time ago - esp re EJ (Eddie Jones) - and with different ARU CEOs etc in charge. I think both these men have the personal maturity and robustness to overcome historical spats with the then ARU and such like. And RA needs to bend over backwards to attract the best coach, they would if sensible do so by 'being on their best behaviour' so to speak and being wholly undistracted by old irritants.

Re (2), Rennie. THE core problem with the Deans selection was that the ARU and many others just forget to realise how much of his pre-2008 success was due to the extraordinary depth of player talent, coaching skill and player development smarts from schools up, and the total rugby passion in every single community crevice, that is NZ's Canterbury rugby epicentre. It's unquestionably the single most productive and consistently successful provincial rugby franchise on the planet. Yes, Deans was skilful within it, but his credentials clearly were co-dependent with all that this was and is inside this exceptional rugby province. This province, and the ABs' equally unique and special world, was all Deans had ever known as player and coach prior to arriving in Australia in 2008.

Once Deans left this fertile womb, he soon became bereft of all the deep support systems and player quality he was invisibly dependent upon in Canterbury. He found the gritty adaptation and compromises essential with the wildly different Australian rugby scene very difficult. The clash with a crucial core component of his Super Rugby success was impossibly large.

Now to Rennie, whose story is importantly different, IMO in positive ways. Yes he successfully IIRC coached the NZ Junior ABs and/or NZ Schoolboys to success, but more importantly he took a seriously isolated and underperforming NZ Super franchise and quite quickly mutated virtually every aspect of it into a Super powerhouse for at least a couple of seasons. He personally picked out and re-developed some exceptional rugby players in the process.

The story of the Chiefs in Hamilton, whilst also NZ-based, could not be more different to Deans' with the Crusaders and this sets Rennie out as a HC that can take poor morale and low confidence, compromised players, compromised depth, a loser culture etc etc and migrate it success within tolerable periods of time.

And that is more, a lot more, of what we will need post Cheika, post the blustering and dangerously emotive, arrogant and non-analytical approach to national team coaching that is now the unenviable Cheika legacy.

 

[fatprop]

Re Beale's chip. Yes, it's indefensible, but plenty of players do something crazy on the spur of the moment, under pressure, or trying to create something magical playing catch-up. Like throwing a long cut-out pass behind your own try line, only to have the opposition fall on it and score, and he's considered one of the greatest wingers the game has produced!!

It happens when you are chasing the game

 

[Finsbury Girl]

Re (1). I would not fret over that. These departure were some time ago - esp re EJ (Eddie Jones) - and with different ARU CEOs etc in charge. I think both these men have the personal maturity and robustness to overcome historical spats with the then ARU and such like. And RA needs to bend over backwards to attract the best coach, they would if sensible do so by 'being on their best behaviour' so to speak and being wholly undistracted by old irritants.



Re (2), Rennie. THE core problem with the Deans selection was that the ARU and many others just forget to realise how much of his pre-2008 success was due to the extraordinary depth of player talent, coaching skill and player development smarts from schools up, and the total rugby passion in every single community crevice, that is NZ's Canterbury rugby epicentre. It's unquestionably the single most productive and consistently successful provincial rugby franchise on the planet. Yes, Deans was skilful within it, but his credentials clearly were co-dependent with all that this was and is inside this exceptional rugby province. This province, and the ABs' equally unique and special world, was all Deans had ever known as player and coach prior to arriving in Australia in 2008.



Once Deans left this fertile womb, he soon became bereft of all the deep support systems and player quality he was invisibly dependent upon in Canterbury. He found the gritty adaptation and compromises essential with the wildly different Australian rugby scene very difficult. The clash with a crucial core component of his Super Rugby success was impossibly large.



Now to Rennie, whose story is importantly different, IMO in positive ways. Yes he successfully IIRC coached the NZ Junior ABs and/or NZ Schoolboys to success, but more importantly he took a seriously isolated and underperforming NZ Super franchise and quite quickly mutated virtually every aspect of it into a Super powerhouse for at least a couple of seasons. He personally picked out and re-developed some exceptional rugby players in the process.



The story of the Chiefs in Hamilton, whilst also NZ-based, could not be more different to Deans' with the Crusaders and this sets Rennie out as a HC that can take poor morale and low confidence, compromised players, compromised depth, a loser culture etc etc and migrate it success within tolerable periods of time.



And that is more, a lot more, of what we will need post Cheika, post the blustering and dangerously emotive, arrogant and non-analytical approach to national team coaching that is now the unenviable Cheika legacy.

Mate Waikato has been producing quality players for years. He had decent cattle exactly the same as Dingo.

You could walk down the main drag of Te Kuiti and randomly pick every second bloke and you'd have a half decent side.

 

[RedsHappy]

Mate Waikato has been producing quality players for years. He had decent cattle exactly the same as Dingo.

You could walk down the main drag of Te Kuiti and randomly pick every second bloke and you'd have a half decent side.

Oh OK, really, so that all just auto-translates to successful winning Super teams? If I post below the Wiki entry for the NZ Chiefs you may see that Rennie - despite these reams of wonderful players you attest are just hanging out of Waikato milk bars - there took a 'disappointing' Chiefs history in Super Rugby and led its transformation. Any successful Super HC needs a core of good players to succeed with, no argument there. But look how often say the Stormers and the Waratahs have won the Super comp, and they have consistently had well-above-average player rosters to work with. (Btw: a 'question' re Rennie remains just how dependent he was on the renown elite coaching talents of the highly regarded Wayne Smith.)

"The Chiefs were founded in 1996 as the Waikato Chiefs for the inaugural Super 12 season in 1996. Prior to the Super 12, the Super 10 competition had been in place, which NPC teams took part in, including Waikato. In the first year of competition the Chiefs placed 6th in the overall standings, missing out on making the finals; winning 6 of their 11 regular season matches. The following season the Chiefs placed 11th, winning 4 games and losing 7. In 1998 the Chiefs performed closer to the standard of their 1996 season and placed at 7th in the final standings. In 1999 the side were able to do one better and claimed 6th position on the ladder but were still yet to make the playoffs.​

​

In 2000 the Chiefs won 3 of their regular season games and finished the regular season in 10th place. The following season the team equalled their best position again – finishing 6th. In 2002 the team won 4 games and lost 7 to finish in 8th position, and the season after, 2003 Super 12 season, fell to a 10th-place finish. But the season after, the Chiefs won 7 regular season games and came 4th on the ladder – claiming the first semi-final spot in their history. The Chiefs lost the semi-final against the Brumbies. In 2005 the team finished 6th. In 2006, the Super 12 expanded to the Super 14, with the addition of a new Australian and South African club. The Chiefs won 7 of their 13 games and drew once with 5 losses to come 7th. In 2009, the Chiefs made their second ever semi-final, defeating the Hurricanes 14 – 10 to advance to the final for the first time. They lost the final to the Bulls by the biggest-ever margin of 61–17. In the 2010 and 2011 seasons, they were unable to replicate their form of 2009, missing the playoffs in both seasons.​

​

In 2012, following the disappointing results of previous years, the Chiefs underwent a significant change in personnel. This included the recruitment of new coaches, including Dave Rennie and Wayne Smith, and players, including Aaron Cruden, Ben Tameifuna, Brodie Retallick and Sonny Bill Williams. The changes had an immediate impact as the Chiefs finished at the top of the New Zealand conference, qualifying for a home semi-final, which they won, defeating the Crusaders 20–17. They subsequently hosted the final for the first time in the teams's history, comprehensively defeating the Sharks by 37 – 6, claiming their first title. They also set many club records in the 2012 season, including: most home wins, best home streak, best season winning streak, and most points and tries scored.[1]​

​

In 2013, the Chiefs again won the Super Rugby title and the New Zealand conference with a regular-season record of 12 wins and four losses. They also won the BNZ Cup, a new trophy established by the NZRU for the New Zealand side with the best record in intra-conference matches.​

​

In 2016 the Chiefs played a touring Wales side, winning the one-off encounter 40-7. In doing so they became the first New Zealand Super Rugby franchise to defeat an international team.[2] In 2017 the Chiefs played the British and Irish Lions side in Hamilton, losing the encounter 34-6."​

 

[Spruce Moose]

Re Beale's chip. Yes, it's indefensible, but plenty of players do something crazy on the spur of the moment, under pressure, or trying to create something magical playing catch-up. Like throwing a long cut-out pass behind your own try line, only to have the opposition fall on it and score, and he's considered one of the greatest wingers the game has produced!!

You can't blame the players for the running out of the 22, the coaches have obviously told them to keep position at all costs. They never set up for the clearing kick, which apparantly is this Australian way as everyone keeps calling it. I for one am happy to give another way a go, whether it be Kiwi, South African, Japanese etc. (just not Welsh).

The defining comment from Cheika was that he only wanted to win playing the "Australian" way or not win at all, that just summed him up. I'm quite sure if he asked most fans they would be happy with a win against the English anyway possible, if that included using the bloke you selected who can kick the thing 60m out of 22 for touch it would have been good.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Said player has been getting away with on and off field murder for a decade. Why *wouldnt* he think it ok to do whatever feels good at the time?

Even worse, encouraging that style of play as ‘genius’ and ‘seeing things others don’t.’

Australian rugby is a self licking ice cream.

 

[Oldschool]

RedsHappy, Rennies success at Waikato has a common thread with Deans. It's the Professor AKA Wayne Smith.

 

[RedsHappy]

Maybe worth posting the Rennie Wiki entry, it's largely unadorned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Rennie

Any rugby man that owned and ran a pub called the Lonely Goat Herd can't be all bad.

 

[Braveheart81]

Our exit plan is so frustrating. We don't have a left footer so we want to clear from the right side of the field. Other teams know that so every kick off goes deep to our left corner.

We then proceed to go a bunch of phases trying to transition it across field for a clearance. Along the way we either drop it (Allan Ala'alatoa) or do a stupid dinky kick (Kurtley Beale) or something else stupid. It was pretty much a given that we gave points straight back to England after scoring them because of this.

I wonder how much more successful we'd be if we just hoofed the ball straight down the field as far as we could at the first decent opportunity. Obviously you create a risk letting the other side run it back at you but I can't believe it would be much worse than what we're experiencing with our current exits.

The glaringly obvious point under Cheika's lack of study of oppositions and wanting to play your own game is that it's all well and good if you're the best team in the world. You play the way you want and the opposition can't deal with it because you're better than them. We're not close to that though. Surely you have to play to keep yourself in the game and look for opportunities to play the way you want to.

The last issue is gifting the opposition tries. We gave away two freebies against England. The first by Pocock when the game was still a contest was a killer. Beale's was worse in terms of how bad an error but the game was well and truly gone by that point so it's a bit of a moot point. I don't think any top 10 sides gift tries quite so easily and as frequently as we do. How does it continue happening so often?

In so many games we set ourselves back a lot of points through silly errors. When you're an average side you just can't afford to do that and expect to win many games against decent teams.

 

[RedsHappy]

RedsHappy, Rennies success at Waikato has a common thread with Deans. It's the Professor AKA Wayne Smith.

Yeah mate, great point, I did reference that very real ingredient as possibly key to Rennie at the Chiefs.

Accordingly, if RA is close to signing Rennie they'd be very wise to carefully consult those that knew how big a factor this really was in the Chiefs' transformation. However, RA's history of meticulous due diligence re its most senior hires is, shall we say, 'not great'.

 

[Finsbury Girl]

Oh OK, really, so that all just auto-translates to successful winning Super teams? If I post below the Wiki entry for the NZ Chiefs you may see that Rennie - despite these reams of wonderful players you attest are just hanging out of Waikato milk bars - there took a 'disappointing' Chiefs history in Super Rugby and led its transformation. Any successful Super HC needs a core of good players to succeed with, no argument there. But look how often say the Stormers and the Waratahs have won the Super comp, and they have consistently had well-above-average player rosters to work with. (Btw: a 'question' re Rennie remains just how dependent he was on the renown elite coaching talents of the highly regarded Wayne Smith.)

"The Chiefs were founded in 1996 as the Waikato Chiefs for the inaugural Super 12 season in 1996. Prior to the Super 12, the Super 10 competition had been in place, which NPC teams took part in, including Waikato. In the first year of competition the Chiefs placed 6th in the overall standings, missing out on making the finals; winning 6 of their 11 regular season matches. The following season the Chiefs placed 11th, winning 4 games and losing 7. In 1998 the Chiefs performed closer to the standard of their 1996 season and placed at 7th in the final standings. In 1999 the side were able to do one better and claimed 6th position on the ladder but were still yet to make the playoffs.​

​

In 2000 the Chiefs won 3 of their regular season games and finished the regular season in 10th place. The following season the team equalled their best position again – finishing 6th. In 2002 the team won 4 games and lost 7 to finish in 8th position, and the season after, 2003 Super 12 season, fell to a 10th-place finish. But the season after, the Chiefs won 7 regular season games and came 4th on the ladder – claiming the first semi-final spot in their history. The Chiefs lost the semi-final against the Brumbies. In 2005 the team finished 6th. In 2006, the Super 12 expanded to the Super 14, with the addition of a new Australian and South African club. The Chiefs won 7 of their 13 games and drew once with 5 losses to come 7th. In 2009, the Chiefs made their second ever semi-final, defeating the Hurricanes 14 – 10 to advance to the final for the first time. They lost the final to the Bulls by the biggest-ever margin of 61–17. In the 2010 and 2011 seasons, they were unable to replicate their form of 2009, missing the playoffs in both seasons.​

​

In 2012, following the disappointing results of previous years, the Chiefs underwent a significant change in personnel. This included the recruitment of new coaches, including Dave Rennie and Wayne Smith, and players, including Aaron Cruden, Ben Tameifuna, Brodie Retallick and Sonny Bill Williams. The changes had an immediate impact as the Chiefs finished at the top of the New Zealand conference, qualifying for a home semi-final, which they won, defeating the Crusaders 20–17. They subsequently hosted the final for the first time in the teams's history, comprehensively defeating the Sharks by 37 – 6, claiming their first title. They also set many club records in the 2012 season, including: most home wins, best home streak, best season winning streak, and most points and tries scored.[1]​

​

In 2013, the Chiefs again won the Super Rugby title and the New Zealand conference with a regular-season record of 12 wins and four losses. They also won the BNZ Cup, a new trophy established by the NZRU for the New Zealand side with the best record in intra-conference matches.​

​

In 2016 the Chiefs played a touring Wales side, winning the one-off encounter 40-7. In doing so they became the first New Zealand Super Rugby franchise to defeat an international team.[2] In 2017 the Chiefs played the British and Irish Lions side in Hamilton, losing the encounter 34-6."​

I repeat he had good cattle to work with. They've had some good years some great years and some fair to middling years.

They certainly didn't go from rubbish to world beaters as was the implication.

 

[upthereds#!]

I think we should make a play for Eddie.

They will never afford Eddie I feel. One thing Eddie believes in (same as other coaches like Graham Henry), is that a great head coach is only great because they surround themselves with the greatest team.

The Best defence coach possible, attack coaches, set piece coaches, analysts, trainers, physios, psychs etc. It's an expensive process. Eddie has no problem in holding his staff to a very high standard when they are hired bcause they are meant to be the best. He will absolutely hold his assitants accountable for their portfolios.


It's why I doubt that Australia will be successful in pursuing their preferred support team (Wisemantel, Taylor, Stiles). Most liekly a significant shortfall of $, especially for Wisemantel who rejected the Waratahs (though hopefully to become the next Wallaby Attack Coach...)

It's probably Cheikas greatest shortfall. He never wanted the best possible support team, he wanted a support team that would be yes men.