Vickerman to play with Northampton ASAP

[Ruggo]

Which test was that in? I thought our scrum struggled to break even with anybody!

Still in 2010 mode, I was refering to 2009.

 

[DPK]

Which test was that in? I thought our scrum struggled to break even with anybody!

The Aus scrum was pretty strong against the South Africans. By which I mean didn't get shoved back every single time and did push forward a couple of times.

 

[Slim 293]

.. will attest, not have attested? Strong words but easy to type out.

Sharpie, God bless him, you can see as a fan after a while that he is not a strong scrummager. You'd want him in the team, but not as the TH lock - any more than the South Africans would want Matfield with his skinny legs scrumming there. I indicated above, and not for the first time, that it would be great to have two locks who normally scrum on the right hand side, in the same scrum, but it doesn't happen a lot in the real world.

Usually the LH lock brings something else to the game. He is usually the lineout guru or a good ball runner but the downside is that he is often inept scrumming on the TH side as he sometimes has to in a game. When a team I follow needs a bit of right shoulder in an upcoming scrum my mind flicks to who the THP is at the minute and then the TH lock. Sometimes I can foretell that the back of the scrum will be pointing the wrong way.

You definitely don't want two LH locks in one scrum as they don't know how to support the THP and they usually don't have the core strength and arse and leg strength of a good TH prop. Sometimes you can see that the ideal force vectors are corrupted and it's like watching carriages zig-zagging in a train wreck behind the engine. The worst example of having two LH locks was at Twickenham in 2005. I think we can all remember the overhead shot and Sheridan powering through a gap between our THP and hooker and then separating our two locks.

On that occasion the LH lock was Sharpie, but who was the TH lock? Poor old 3M who should have been on the other side. Never mind though - the props got the blame.

Usually one good scrumming TH lock is all you need, but you need one. They can be involved in scrumming shockers too but having one reduces the incidence of them.

Indeed...

One should also note how the Brumbies' scrum holds up without Ben Hand...

 

[Gnostic]

.. will attest, not have attested? Strong words but easy to type out.

Sharpie, God bless him, you can see as a fan after a while that he is not a strong scrummager. You'd want him in the team, but not as the TH lock - any more than the South Africans would want Matfield with his skinny legs scrumming there. I indicated above, and not for the first time, that it would be great to have two locks who normally scrum on the right hand side, in the same scrum, but it doesn't happen a lot in the real world.

Usually the LH lock brings something else to the game. He is usually the lineout guru or a good ball runner but the downside is that he is often inept scrumming on the TH side as he sometimes has to in a game. When a team I follow needs a bit of right shoulder in an upcoming scrum my mind flicks to who the THP is at the minute and then the TH lock. Sometimes I can foretell that the back of the scrum will be pointing the wrong way.

You definitely don't want two LH locks in one scrum as they don't know how to support the THP and they usually don't have the core strength and arse and leg strength of a good TH prop. Sometimes you can see that the ideal force vectors are corrupted and it's like watching carriages zig-zagging in a train wreck behind the engine. The worst example of having two LH locks was at Twickenham in 2005. I think we can all remember the overhead shot and Sheridan powering through a gap between our THP and hooker and then separating our two locks.

On that occasion the LH lock was Sharpie, but who was the TH lock? Poor old 3M who should have been on the other side. Never mind though - the props got the blame.

Usually one good scrumming TH lock is all you need, but you need one. They can be involved in scrumming shockers too but having one reduces the incidence of them.

Remind me again who was the TH Lock in the '07 RWC semi against England. The Props seem to have got the blame for that one as well.

As has been stated ad nauseam the Tight five is responsible for the scrum and require significant support from the backrow. Look at our weak scrumming performances and our strong ones and you will find some consistancies, in the bad performances the tight five are NOT tight as the name suggests and requires and there is a consequent looseness in the back row as well leaving the front row dreadfully exposed. Conversely have a look at the Wallabies good scrummaging performances (not just the dominant ones).

 

[bring back rucking]

.. will attest, not have attested? Strong words but easy to type out.

Sharpie, God bless him, you can see as a fan after a while that he is not a strong scrummager. You'd want him in the team, but not as the TH lock - any more than the South Africans would want Matfield with his skinny legs scrumming there. I indicated above, and not for the first time, that it would be great to have two locks who normally scrum on the right hand side, in the same scrum, but it doesn't happen a lot in the real world.

Usually the LH lock brings something else to the game. He is usually the lineout guru or a good ball runner but the downside is that he is often inept scrumming on the TH side as he sometimes has to in a game. When a team I follow needs a bit of right shoulder in an upcoming scrum my mind flicks to who the THP is at the minute and then the TH lock. Sometimes I can foretell that the back of the scrum will be pointing the wrong way.

You definitely don't want two LH locks in one scrum as they don't know how to support the THP and they usually don't have the core strength and arse and leg strength of a good TH prop. Sometimes you can see that the ideal force vectors are corrupted and it's like watching carriages zig-zagging in a train wreck behind the engine. The worst example of having two LH locks was at Twickenham in 2005. I think we can all remember the overhead shot and Sheridan powering through a gap between our THP and hooker and then separating our two locks.

On that occasion the LH lock was Sharpie, but who was the TH lock? Poor old 3M who should have been on the other side. Never mind though - the props got the blame.

Usually one good scrumming TH lock is all you need, but you need one. They can be involved in scrumming shockers too but having one reduces the incidence of them.

Yep very easy to type....but if you would like signed affidavits from former players if they have a dim view of one of the current crop before it can be acceptable then I think it's a bit rich... But anyway... The point is not whether sharpe is a loose or tight lock... He is neither... He is a classic example of a super rugby player and not a test match player.... The kiwis have always understood this difference but we have not... Same may be said of Ben Alexander in time, and barnes appears to be the opposite case in point... Sharpe has played this way since he captained the 21's with a comb over.... Strikes me as a one of those tight five players that backs would "rate" because he is so obvious in open play... And the other 4 members of the tight five would think he is a muppet

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

That is unbelievably harsh BBR.

 

[Gnostic]

Yep very easy to type....but if you would like signed affidavits from former players if they have a dim view of one of the current crop before it can be acceptable then I think it's a bit rich... But anyway... The point is not whether sharpe is a loose or tight lock... He is neither... He is a classic example of a super rugby player and not a test match player.... The kiwis have always understood this difference but we have not... Same may be said of Ben Alexander in time, and barnes appears to be the opposite case in point... Sharpe has played this way since he captained the 21's with a comb over.... Strikes me as a one of those tight five players that backs would "rate" because he is so obvious in open play... And the other 4 members of the tight five would think he is a muppet

What a load.

Sharpe along with Pocock was one of the most valuable players for the Wallabies last year. He was consistant and a lineout player that both the ABs and Boks locks stated that they had a hard time playing against. As LG has stated he is not a TH lock and needs to be paired with a dominant scrummaging lock. Notice that throught Eales career he was teamed with very effective foils to his obvious skills and this gave balance and effectiveness to the pack.

You have focussed on dismissing Sharpe but the true focus should be on why he has been consistently selected in a position which he is obviously unsuited for.

In any event I direct you back to my opening sentence of my post above.

 

[bring back rucking]

Maybe... But a stable scrum is absolutely paramount for this rwc as we will be pinged by refs if the thing collapses irrespective of whether we are to blame.... He's not worth the risk for mine if we have vickers and big kev in form

 

[Slim 293]

I don't know about Alexander not being a test player...

He scrummaged excellently for the Wobs in 2010...

He had a long lay off with injury and was rushed back and of course didn't have the same effect having not played on the TH side for nearly a year... but he still put in some good work around the field...

He's not going to play at TH for the Brumbies and so the decision needs to be made by Deans and co how they utilise him... because he's still one of the top props in the country...

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Maybe... But a stable scrum is absolutely paramount for this rwc as we will be pinged by refs if the thing collapses irrespective of whether we are to blame.... He's not worth the risk for mine if we have vickers and big kev in form

I'd want to see Vicks back and firing before consigning Sharpie to the scrap heap. His work rate has been excellent in the last couple of seasons.

 

[bring back rucking]

How many times did you see eales at second receiver? Granted sharpe had his best super campaign in recent memory... But pocock is in a different league.... If sharpe starts in the rwc quarter final I will eat my hat

 

[Gnostic]

Maybe... But a stable scrum is absolutely paramount for this rwc as we will be pinged by refs if the thing collapses irrespective of whether we are to blame.... He's not worth the risk for mine if we have vickers and big kev in form

I am assuming you will put Vickerman at TH Lock in which case who was TH Lock in 2007 when the scrum was murdered?

In any event as we saw with Baxter I have a feeling that Alexander will be pinged on any 50:50 call simply on his form from last year.

Sorry Slim it wasn't just rushing him back (which I was seriously against you will recall) but his technique. I watched the French game again last weekend and he was rightly penalised as he was head below hips on the crouch call, even before touch. I agree with you regarding his problems being greatly exacerbated by not playing THP for the Ponies as so IMO if he doesn't play THP for the Ponies he should not be picked there for the Wallabies. As bench cover for both sides maybe, but I have no doubt at all, barring injury that we will not see a decent THP (Ma'afu is not a decent scrummaging prop) in the Wallaby squad this year with a predominance of loose playing LHP's who can exist at TH such as Slipper and Alexander, and even Kepu. Simply because there are so few scrums in most games it is possible that Deans will concede this part of the contest, seeking parity and stability on Wallaby ball only and using the mobility and running strengths of the "loose" props to best effect else where. In fact the propaganda threats from the ABs coaches about not contesting scrums late last year may well give you the insight of where the mentality sits ATM.

 

[Gnostic]

How many times did you see eales at second receiver? Granted sharpe had his best super campaign in recent memory... But pocock is in a different league.... If sharpe starts in the rwc quarter final I will eat my hat

Sharpe really only played 2nd receiver because nobody else in the squad (with the exception of AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)) was able to make the gain line let alone put any sort of dent in it. This is the place where we missed TPN, Palu and Ioane. Without them there was nobody to truck the ball up to set up that quick recycle that Cooper needs. Take Sharpe out of the side and there is no effective ball carrier left. Yes Eales did play much tighter, than Sharpe. The problem is as I alluded to, a lack of balance, SHarpe has been consistantly paired with Chisholm who in over 50 tests has failed to step up, or backrow/lock lightweights forcing him into the role he isn't suited for. If Eales had not been around I wonder if Garrick Morgan would ever have made the Wallabies, or Tom Bowman? The balance and combination between the two is very important. A combination of Sharpe and Horwill/Simmons/Douglas would be very very formidable in both set pieces and in the loose.

 

[bring back rucking]

I am assuming you will put Vickerman at TH Lock in which case who was TH Lock in 2007 when the scrum was murdered?

In any event as we saw with Baxter I have a feeling that Alexander will be pinged on any 50:50 call simply on his form from last year.

Sorry Slim it wasn't just rushing him back (which I was seriously against you will recall) but his technique. I watched the French game again last weekend and he was rightly penalised as he was head below hips on the crouch call, even before touch. I agree with you regarding his problems being greatly exacerbated by not playing THP for the Ponies as so IMO if he doesn't play THP for the Ponies he should not be picked there for the Wallabies. As bench cover for both sides maybe, but I have no doubt at all, barring injury that we will not see a decent THP (Ma'afu is not a decent scrummaging prop) in the Wallaby squad this year with a predominance of loose playing LHP's who can exist at TH such as Slipper and Alexander, and even Kepu. Simply because there are so few scrums in most games it is possible that Deans will concede this part of the contest, seeking parity and stability on Wallaby ball only and using the mobility and running strengths of the "loose" props to best effect else where. In fact the propaganda threats from the ABs coaches about not contesting scrums late last year may well give you the insight of where the mentality sits ATM.

Vickerman right side horwill left... Bound tightly with this new age method of the locks not binding prior to packing sent to the scrap heap... What's the rub on Dan Palmer? I keep hearing from blokes that have played with or against him that he is the business... Every time I make an effort to watch him he is either injured, benched or in a camp... The only time I did see him they packed him at loose head.... Is he the answer or does he have failings?

 

[Lee Grant]

Remind me again who was the TH Lock in the '07 RWC semi against England.

Yeah that's why I put my little disclaimer in. Vickerman did not play great in the 2007 RWC as several of us have said in the past. That's why we can't think of him as a scrum or grunt saviour in 2011.

But we can express our hope that he will play as well or better than any TH lock we have at the minute, or to be the no. 2, as unlikely as that is.

 

[bring back rucking]

Sharpe really only played 2nd receiver because nobody else in the squad (with the exception of AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)) was able to make the gain line let alone put any sort of dent in it. This is the place where we missed TPN, Palu and Ioane. Without them there was nobody to truck the ball up to set up that quick recycle that Cooper needs. Take Sharpe out of the side and there is no effective ball carrier left. Yes Eales did play much tighter, than Sharpe. The problem is as I alluded to, a lack of balance, SHarpe has been consistantly paired with Chisholm who in over 50 tests has failed to step up, or backrow/lock lightweights forcing him into the role he isn't suited for. If Eales had not been around I wonder if Garrick Morgan would ever have made the Wallabies, or Tom Bowman? The balance and combination between the two is very important. A combination of Sharpe and Horwill/Simmons/Douglas would be very very formidable in both set pieces and in the loose.

Granted there were very few line benders in the starting side this year.... But that's not the reason sharpe "took on the role".... His entire career has been built on this style of game.... He just stood out more, did the role of a back rower and the plaudits followed... So with Palu, tpn digby and potentially morty back in the frame do we expect that sharpe will "reinvent himself"?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I would also say that he's been our best line out option since Vicks left too. Without him, our lineout has been a catastrophe.

 

[qwerty51]

Well the scrum is twice as important a line-out. You can't get penalised for a poor line-out (something I don't understand with scrum penalties...)

 

[DPK]

Well the scrum is twice as important a line-out. You can't get penalised for a poor line-out (something I don't understand with scrum penalties...)

Sure you can. Baulking, crooked throws, early jumps, not matching the players, throwing over the jumpers, dropping players...

And I'd say the lineout is as important as the scrum.

 

[TOCC]

Sure you can. Baulking, crooked throws, early jumps, not matching the players, throwing over the jumpers, dropping players...

And I'd say the lineout is as important as the scrum.

it really depends on your game plan, you can mitigate the number of lineouts in a game through a certain style play, the same cant be said about scrums