Vickerman to play with Northampton ASAP

[DPK]

it really depends on your game plan, you can mitigate the number of lineouts in a game through a certain style play, the same cant be said about scrums

I agree that there are gameplans that limit lineouts, but they aren't usually effective. If you play a side like SA who have a strong lineout when you have a weak one, they're gameplan will obviously be reactionary and aim to secure more lineouts.

Scrums are always a part of the game, I agree.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I would say that scrums are marginally more important than lineouts for the reason that Konze points out: they are always part of the game. But a weak lineout will hurt you almost as much, given that the opposition can continually kick for field position and win the ball back if they are sufficiently dominant in that phase of the game.

 

[qwerty51]

Sure you can. Baulking, crooked throws, early jumps, not matching the players, throwing over the jumpers, dropping players...

And I'd say the lineout is as important as the scrum.

Yes but that's if you commit the offence, a poor line-out will not result in a penalty conceded.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

But it will result in lost posession, which is often just as bad.

 

[Gnostic]

IMO the lineout is more important simply on the basis that there are far more of them in the average game than scrums.

Australia has survived with a weak scrum since 2002/2003 and won many games where they got annihilated in that facet of play.

Just on the basis of numbers there are on average about 5-10 scrums per game. Lineouts between 15-20. Given the greater surety of retaining the ball on kick returns now we have seen a re-emergence of kicking tactically for touch, especially with a strong lineout like the Boks.

 

[qwerty51]

But it will result in lost posession, which is often just as bad.

Don't think so. If the scrum is inside your half that's an automatic 3 points. I'm not saying line-outs are not important but scrums are where you'll conceed penalties and even get players sent to the bin. Line-outs you'll just lose possession but you can also plan for that but not even competing at the line-out - can't do that at scrums.

 

[bring back rucking]

Scrum stIll remains the best platform to attack from... Get it stable as a minimum and we have the flair to score from first phase... 2 ball at line out time is fairly useless.... And realistically you have only the open to play with.... Centrefield scrum means the world is your oyster... Especially with Cooper, Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) in your side

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Don't think so. If the scrum is inside your half that's an automatic 3 points. I'm not saying line-outs are not important but scrums are where you'll conceed penalties and even get players sent to the bin. Line-outs you'll just lose possession but you can also plan for that but not even competing at the line-out - can't do that at scrums.

But you could have an opposition 5/8 who accurately kicks for the corner, forcing a defensive lineout time after time. If your lineout is getting mullered constantly, you are gifting possession and points will almost inevitably come from that. Look, I'm not saying have a bad scrum isn't worse, just that having a poor lineout is also death by a thousand cuts. We've had it implode against the Boks before and paid dearly. I can also remember a game or two at Eden Park where our lineout imploded and the Blacks were all over us.

 

[bring back rucking]

But you could have an opposition 5/8 who accurately kicks for the corner, forcing a defensive lineout time after time. If your lineout is getting mullered constantly, you are gifting possession and points will almost inevitably come from that. Look, I'm not saying have a bad scrum isn't worse, just that having a poor lineout is also death by a thousand cuts. We've had it implode against the Boks before and paid dearly. I can also remember a game or two at Eden Park where our lineout imploded and the Blacks were all over us.

Agree... Is there a more frustrating moment in a match than winning a penalty on half way, putting the kick to the corner for a lineout... Thinking what move is going to be pulled and then the the throw is not straight... I would call it worse than not finding the line because typically the other winger puts it back into touch and only gains 10m

 

[slasher]

sharpe is and has been for awhile a seagull who is a good lineout exponent. Any team he plays for, regardless of a lack of ball runners, who be better served if he hit rucks all day with the power a guy of his size should have. I can't understand why he hasn't been rocketed by his coaches more often.

 

[Groucho]

sharpe used to be but hasn't been for awhile a seagull who is a good lineout exponent.

Fixed.

 

[kiap]

Vickerman in the run-on side for Saints against the competition heavyweights Saffacens today (tonite OZ time)....

Northampton Saints v Saracens Preview

Northampton are winless in their last four encounters with Saracens in all competitions. Saracens have won on four of their last six visits to Franklin's Gardens in the Premiership.

Northampton Saints' only loss in their last four matches was 20-37 at London Irish in the Anglo Welsh Cup on 30 January. The Saints have suffered just one home defeat this season: 13-16 to Harlequins on New Year's Day.

Saracens have won their last two games in the Anglo-Welsh Cup, whilst in Aviva Premiership Rugby the "fezboys" solo defeat in their last four matches was at Sale on 2 January.

... <snip> ...

Match : Northampton Saints v Saracens
Date : 12th February 2011
Venue : Franklin's Gardens
Kick Off : 12:30
Referee: Andrew Small (51st Premiership game)

Teams

Northampton Saints :15 Greig Tonks , 14 Bruce Reihana , 13 Jon Clarke , 12 James Downey , 11 Paul Diggin , 10 Stephen Myler , 9 Ryan Powell , 8 Roger Wilson, 7 Phil Dowson (capt) , 6 Calum Clark , 5 Christian Day , 4 Dan Vickerman, 3 Brian Mujati, 2 Brett Sharman 1 Soane Tonga’uiha

Replacements : 16 Andy Long , 17 Alex Waller , 18 Tom Mercey , 19 Mark Sorenson , 20 Mark Easter , 21 Stuart Commins , 22 Shane Geraghty , 23 Scott Armstrong

Saracens :15 Alex Goode , 14 David Strettle , 13 Rodd Penney , 12 Brad Barritt , 11 Chris Wyles , 10 Owen Farrell , 9 Neil de Kock , 1 Rhys Gill , 2 Schalk Brits , 3 Carlos Nieto , 4 Hayden Smith , 5 Mouritz Botha , 6 Justin Melck , 7 Jacques Burger , 8 Ernst Joubert (c)

16 Jamie George , 17 Jared Saunders , 18 Matt Stevens , 19 Hugh Vyvyan , 20 Andy Saull , 21 Richard Wigglesworth , 22 Michael Tagicakibau , 23 James Short

clicky

 

[Lee Grant]

Vickerman was on the Saints bench last week in an LVC game (LV is the sponsor of the Anglo-Welsh Cup) but this will be his first starting game for the Saints.

They're not making a big fuss of Vickerman making a comeback in England – they have a lot of old scrubbers playing for different clubs. If he starts getting back to form of about 5 years ago though he'll raise a few comments.

As I wrote earlier: Northampton will be giving Oz rugby or the Tahs no favours in giving Vickers a run. To keep solid journeymen Sorenson and Eustace out of the starting side signals that they think Vickers will be good enough for long enough for a big game, which this one will be.

The Avira Premiership is starting up again after time out for the Heineken Cup and the LVC. The Saints lost their last two games in the AP and 3 out of the last 4. They have games in hand but have fallen to 3rd place. Recently they lost their last 2 LVC games including one to lowly Leeds.

They will want to win this one, big time, to get back on track and also to get one over Sarries, their bogey team.

I don't know when I expected Vickerman to be playing for Northampton but it's probably ahead of what we all expected. The absence of the injured Lawes through injury will mean that he will get more games than he otherwise would, though Lawes would have been absent for this game playing for England had he been fit.

For those who want to watch this game live it's on Oz TV at 11.25pm tonight (Sat) – but only if you subscribe to Setanta via Foxtel. For those who don't I'll write an assessment of how he played.

[PS - Thanks for posting that kiap. I get a bit lazy with my TV IQ planning and I would have missed the game live otherwise,]

 

[Blue]

Watching the game so I'll chip in. He looks pretty fit to me.

 

[kiap]

Cheers guys. Not a bad game, actually. Saracens seem to have the stronger scrum, and they even went okay even after tight head Nieto was carded (referee was a bit pedantic and Saracens paid for it by being down to 13 men for a while at the end of the half).

Seemed to be a reasonable half for Vickers, if not spectacular. Some good clean-outs, a safe kick reception and saw him take one good attacking lineout on the oppo 5m line (although their team got pinged for obstruction in the ensuing hit-ups). Looks alright for now.

Saints 10 - 6 Sarries at HT.

 

[kiap]

My 2c on the 2nd half... Sarries were the more physical side in attack and defence. Tackled strongly and deserved their win. Northampton were disjointed, but they did somewhat reverse the dominance in the scrum last 20 mins after Nieto was subbed. Couple great runs from Tonga'uiha.

70 mins from Vickerman. Some strong rucking and won a turnover through counter rucking early in the second half, but also gave one up a bit later with a knock-on when in attack... Keener judges will be able to discern more.

Saints 15 - 26 Sarries. FT.

 

[Lee Grant]

Not a bad 70 min effort from Vickerman after being out of pro rugby for so long. As kiap mentioned he dropped a ball cold on a run and he also stuffed up a kick reception, though his prop got in the way.

At other times he hit the rucks with good timing and was influential defending a maul. He was mainly, though not always at 2 in the lineout though they didn't throw to him much - I can only remember two. he did a bit of mountaineering that he got away with and just before he and the other lock got replaced he was influential in stopping a try at the goal line though they scored not long after.

He wasn't as mobile as the LH lock Day but he was never was that quick to get to the other side of the park.

Not a bad effort after such a long break but we won't be fooling ourselves. It was not a game played at the pace of a Super 14 game though it was good that it was so. It will give him a slow re-introduction to pro rugby and a lot better than trying to do that cold turkey a few months from now.

As for the Saints losing 3 AP games in a row and 4 out of 5 - and this one at home: they will have to get back on the bike. They are not recognisable from the team that went to the top of the AP - and the absence of their England and injured players is not a satisfactory explanation.

 

[cyclopath]

Great news. Solid effort first game back by the sounds of it ( I don't have Setanta!!). In fact better to start off "slow" and keep building, and get more professional game time under his belt. Hopefully he can stay uninjured and may provide Aus rugby at least an option, and a very experienced one at that, later on.
Some have gotten a bit carried away by his dispensability, since we have Horwill, Simmons, Sharpe, Douglas, etc..., but really, the S15 hasn't started yet and we are never more than 2 injuries away from a pretty bare cupboard, as we have seen last season in a few positions. The more in the mix, the better. I don't expect him to be a starting lock for Aus, if others are fit and well, but he'd make a damn good reserve.

 

[Blue]

I think Aussie fans should be hugely encouraged by that performance. For a guy who has been sitting behind a desk, to come out like that in top flight rugby shows he still has it. He'll no doubt get more fit as time wears on.

I'd forgotten how hard he hits the rucks. He gets great body position.

It will be interesting however to see if he gets the explosiveness back to jump at 4 in the lineout.

 

[RugbyReg]

yep, it all sounds very encouraging.