Vickerman to play with Northampton ASAP

[Slim 293]

Yeah, it's kind of pointless to say "Oh, what about Mumm and Chiz LOL OMFG etc." when mentioning Vickerman's form...

Just because these guys haven't been the best test locks, doesn't mean that an out of shape, out of form Vickerman is the saviour...

"OMG! Cooper can't tackle... let's bring back Bernie!"

Let's just focus on who is best for the job, and not rely on players from the past to automatically fill roles based on their past experiences.

If Vickerman plays a handful of games for the Tahs and is outstanding then let's consider him...

If not, we have to go with other guys...

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

There is a difference though: Bernie is long retired, Vicks is not. Chiz in particular I don't think measures up to the required standard as an international lock. Especially for a bloke who has played as many tests as he does. He could be fantastic if he ever knew how to use the physical gifts he clearly has, but for some reason he just completely lacks mongrel.

 

[Lee Grant]

Slim,

I wasn't disregarding form. I'm assuming that Vickerman is up to it. If he is, you can't compare him to Chiz or Mumm, nor even Sharpe, who has being playing TH lock for Oz and the Force by default. If Vickerman is in form ( as I should have mentioned in my earlier post, not being sensitive enough to the interests of others to do so), you can only compare him, at the minute, with Horwill, though hopefully, we may have another by the end of the S15 season. If he isn't, he shouldn't be considered at all.

I think that you, and perhaps others, think of second rowers without regard of whether they are TH locks or LH locks. Believe me that locks do not think like that. Good TH locks are gold - and yes, only if they are in form - and Vickerman may not be when the Wallaby squad is picked for 3N.

 

[Slim 293]

Oh no, I'm aware that Australia is lacking good TH locks, and that's one of the reasons why our scrum has been below standard.

I just think people are getting their hopes up over a player who hasn't played for a few years, and there seems to be an odd consensus that if he shows up he's automatically better than guys who might not be that great, but have at least been performing at a higher level.

Brown Hornet - Vickerman has been in nearly quasi-retirement for a few years. He's actually been out of the test arena for nearly as long as those who retired after the last RWC.

He has not played any form of rugby that indicates that he is anywhere near up for it.

It's nearly as bad as assuming that league stars should be automatic inclusion because of their form in another game.

Vickerman has no form to speak of as of the moment. And should ONLY be considered based on form for him matches with the Tahs later in the year, and not on how he played THREE years ago.

 

[Lee Grant]

Fair enough - there is no dispute after all except with those who think that Vickerman will be the same, when he arrives in the country, as he was circa 2006.

But I don't think that there are too many such tragics. It is the vibe that is at fault. I curse the vibe.

 

[qwerty51]

And it has only been 2 years since Vickerman last played. Not 3.

FWIW, he was the best lock in the world when he left imo.

 

[RugbyReg]

There is a difference though: Bernie is long retired, Vicks is not. Chiz in particular I don't think measures up to the required standard as an international lock. Especially for a bloke who has played as many tests as he does. He could be fantastic if he ever knew how to use the physical gifts he clearly has, but for some reason he just completely lacks mongrel.

Bernie's last test match was the RWC 07 quarter final. Vicks's last was about 9 months later.

Bernie has since been playing in Japan, Vicks has been studying. I don't think the difference is that big, other career length.

 

[RugbyReg]

And it has only been 2 years since Vickerman last played. Not 3.

FWIW, he was the best lock in the world when he left imo.

yeah? That's what I struggle with, he was fantastic in his prime, no doubt. I just feel that prime was long ago. That last year (2008) he only started 1 test, coming off the bench a couple of times. It was also the height of Matfield and Botha, with Brad Thorn not too far away.

 

[fatprop]

yeah? That's what I struggle with, he was fantastic in his prime, no doubt. I just feel that prime was long ago. That last year (2008) he only started 1 test, coming off the bench a couple of times. It was also the height of Matfield and Botha, with Brad Thorn not too far away.

Best when he went to study? Maybe not, he was pretty battered and wounded.

The time off has either helped or hindered that.

But as Lee said, he is a proper TH lock, and was a damn good one, and in Aus at the moment they are as scarce as ducks teeth.

Aus would have a better squad with fit Vickerman, so lets just hope

 

[Ruggo]

yeah? That's what I struggle with, he was fantastic in his prime, no doubt. I just feel that prime was long ago. That last year (2008) he only started 1 test, coming off the bench a couple of times. It was also the height of Matfield and Botha, with Brad Thorn not too far away.

Brumbies held an open training session last night and it looked like Bernie still has it. He is a striked me as very hands on and he had his backline hanging off every word when he was putting them through drills. I think the Brumbies backs under him will be dangerous this year.

On top of that we asked him if didn't mind getting a photo with mum and the bloke was friendly as and stopped and chatted for a few minutes. Cheers Bernie you problbly don't know how happy you made an old lady feel last night. The bloke is a legend and a great role model for the game.

 

[DPK]

I'd prefer a fully fit Will Caldwell getting a go rather than Vickerman being brought back in, but it looks Ducka isn't going get that chance.

 

[bring back rucking]

The work he does at the breakdown in as far as moving bodies is a significant asset to the balance of this wallaby side... one of the great exponents of cleaning out directly over the ball whilst staying on his feet. Knock on effect will be huge for someone like Elsom who had this luxury in Leinster and was able to shine in other areas.... I would be far more comfortable with Vicks playing the true tight locks game and Horwill as the looser of the two..... Surely getting good clean ball from set peice and phase would be the priority for this wallaby side going into the RWC... It looks like the kiddies out the back are our weapon of choice for this campaign, so carrying a old dog who can do what we currently cant is worth his weight in gold... (once again, if he is not fit then forget it... but lets assume he will be... he could even be fresh both physically and mentally...)

 

[Groucho]

Best when he went to study? Maybe not, he was pretty battered and wounded.

The time off has either helped or hindered that.

But as Lee said, he is a proper TH lock, and was a damn good one, and in Aus at the moment they are as scarce as ducks teeth.

Aus would have a better squad with fit Vickerman, so lets just hope

An engine room of Vickerman, Horwill and Palu would at least add some serious grunt at scrum time.

 

[Lee Grant]

An Oz scrum with two genuine TH locks - we can dream.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think we're selling Sharpie a bit short here, he's been immense in the last 12 months without a lot of quality back up.

 

[Ruggo]

An Oz scrum with two genuine TH locks - we can dream.

EOYT 2009 we had Horwill and Chisholm and our scrum was domminant but our lineout was horrible. Won't have that problem with Vickerman though. I am not Sharpe bashing but whenever he is around we have scrum trouble.

 

[bring back rucking]

Numerous ex wallaby forwards will attest that sharpe has a lot to answer for come scrum time... There was enourmos discontent when multiple props were being slammed for australias scrummaging woes when the problem lay at sharpes feet (literally)... It was no coincidence that the tahs had the most dominant Australian scrum and one of the top in super rugby at the same time that the wallaby scrum was the laughing stock of world rugby...

 

[Lee Grant]

.. will attest, not have attested? Strong words but easy to type out.

Sharpie, God bless him, you can see as a fan after a while that he is not a strong scrummager. You'd want him in the team, but not as the TH lock - any more than the South Africans would want Matfield with his skinny legs scrumming there. I indicated above, and not for the first time, that it would be great to have two locks who normally scrum on the right hand side, in the same scrum, but it doesn't happen a lot in the real world.

Usually the LH lock brings something else to the game. He is usually the lineout guru or a good ball runner but the downside is that he is often inept scrumming on the TH side as he sometimes has to in a game. When a team I follow needs a bit of right shoulder in an upcoming scrum my mind flicks to who the THP is at the minute and then the TH lock. Sometimes I can foretell that the back of the scrum will be pointing the wrong way.

You definitely don't want two LH locks in one scrum as they don't know how to support the THP and they usually don't have the core strength and arse and leg strength of a good TH prop. Sometimes you can see that the ideal force vectors are corrupted and it's like watching carriages zig-zagging in a train wreck behind the engine. The worst example of having two LH locks was at Twickenham in 2005. I think we can all remember the overhead shot and Sheridan powering through a gap between our THP and hooker and then separating our two locks.

On that occasion the LH lock was Sharpie, but who was the TH lock? Poor old 3M who should have been on the other side. Never mind though - the props got the blame.

Usually one good scrumming TH lock is all you need, but you need one. They can be involved in scrumming shockers too but having one reduces the incidence of them.

 

[Ruggo]

I think your theory on the props worked in reverse last year Lee with the front row recieving the credit for a solid scrum when we had a tight locking combination behind them. We will never get the balance right until our scrum starts functioning as an 8 man unit.

 

[Hawko]

I think your theory on the props worked in reverse last year Lee with the front row recieving the credit for a solid scrum when we had a tight locking combination behind them. We will never get the balance right until our scrum starts functioning as an 8 man unit.

Which test was that in? I thought our scrum struggled to break even with anybody!