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USA and Canadian Rugby

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exISA

Fred Wood (13)
I've been keeping an eye on the PRP and watched as much footage as possible (if you want to see a web stream look to the Glendale Raptors site) and while the standard is good it's really not of a significantly high enough level to really develop the game in the US. There are some good athletes but they are mixed with blokes who would only make 3rd grade in the Sydney comp or make decent enough subbies players.

.

As I said - I coached Elite Cup/D1 last year , before that I caoched subbies 1st Grade in QLD. The standard in the USA PRP/Elite Cup *shits* all over Subbies. Ironically, the team I coached last year had USA Reps and a couple of guys who played 1st/2nd grade in Sydney . Sure - the D1 system has a wide variety of teams in there (given there is hundreds) and some teams have huge mismatches.

Also - as I mentioned , Golden Gate played Tonga last year losing 55-10.. if Tonga played a 3rd grade Sydney side or a subbies side, can you imagine the score?

You comment couldn't be further from the truth.
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
As I said - I coached Elite Cup/D1 last year , before that I caoched subbies 1st Grade in QLD. The standard in the USA PRP/Elite Cup *shits* all over Subbies. Ironically, the team I coached last year had USA Reps and a couple of guys who played 1st/2nd grade in Sydney . Sure - the D1 system has a wide variety of teams in there (given there is hundreds) and some teams have huge mismatches.

Also - as I mentioned , Golden Gate played Tonga last year losing 55-10.. if Tonga played a 3rd grade Sydney side or a subbies side, can you imagine the score?

You comment couldn't be further from the truth.


I said the teams were a mixture of differing talent levels.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
We're all friends here!

Anyway.

If there's a single aspect of the PRP I haven't been too impressed with as a whole it has been kicking out of hand. Now as a disclaimer I haven't watched all the games but I've been watching quite a few and on a pretty regular basis so I feel that I've gotten a good sampling of things.

Thoughts?
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
We're all friends here!

Anyway.

If there's a single aspect of the PRP I haven't been too impressed with as a whole it has been kicking out of hand. Now as a disclaimer I haven't watched all the games but I've been watching quite a few and on a pretty regular basis so I feel that I've gotten a good sampling of things.

Thoughts?


Just thought I had to make it clear that while there are some good athletes not all of them are Sydney grade 1st or 2nd XV standard. Even though I thought I had made it clear in my first post on the topic.

I should also like to point out that subbies in Sydney particularly in the 1st division is played at a bloody good standard. Up until new strict amateur regulations were introduced there were a number of players receiving payments at that level.

As for the PRP, I agree the kicking from hand needs work and at times so does the movement through the line but apart from that it has been reasonably good.
 

exISA

Fred Wood (13)
Agree - the kicking has been sub par - a possible reason (maybe an excuse) is some of the grounds they play at are extremely windy - plus there was one weekend where it was monsoonal conditions.

I will draw a comparrison between Sydney 1st Grade subbies is that there are ALOT of clubs and the talent is spread thin - the Sydney Subbies side is very handy indeed. Much like the D1 competition , the gap between the very top and bottom is huge - hence Elite Cup/PRP formation where the good teams can have solid hit outs week in week out. A team like Life, Seattle or OPSB when they are on song would more than compete at Sydney 2nd grade level / possible lower 1st grade level. The Life program in particular is fantastic.

Saying the talent isn't there to develop the game is a bit inaccurate though - the talent is certainly there (as evidenced by the shear playing numbers country wide and the recent USA hitout against NZ Maori) , its just syphoning the talent into a viable competiton that is the challenge.

Watched both the Denver/SFGG and Glendale/Ombac games last night. Denver starting to find some form with a boil over win against previous undefeated SFGG and Glendale shooting to the top of the table with a comprehensive win over OMBAC.

Denver are starting to jell and find some comibinations after a rough start to the competition. San Fran looked uncharactarstically flat with many mistakes. Their coach was pissed after the game. Glendale are starting to look like real contenders too , Snyman is really starting to get them going. OMBAC are really a one man team with Zac Pangalenin steering the ship.Commentators were extremely annoying with their constant errors of players names in both who they were and pronunciation (even though Ive seen the exact same commentators say them right in other streams over the last couple of years) .

WorkingclassRugger - genuine question - what is your connection wth USA rugby?
 

exISA

Fred Wood (13)
I said the teams were a mixture of differing talent levels.

YOu actually said "mixed with blokes who would only make 3rd grade in the Sydney comp or make decent enough subbies players."

Reads a lot different to the above quote (which I agree with 100% ) .
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
YOu actually said "mixed with blokes who would only make 3rd grade in the Sydney comp or make decent enough subbies players."

Reads a lot different to the above quote (which I agree with 100% ) .


You should probably quote the entire sentence which essentially says exactly what I said above and according to the post above, you agree with.
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
Agree - the kicking has been sub par - a possible reason (maybe an excuse) is some of the grounds they play at are extremely windy - plus there was one weekend where it was monsoonal conditions.

I will draw a comparrison between Sydney 1st Grade subbies is that there are ALOT of clubs and the talent is spread thin - the Sydney Subbies side is very handy indeed. Much like the D1 competition , the gap between the very top and bottom is huge - hence Elite Cup/PRP formation where the good teams can have solid hit outs week in week out. A team like Life, Seattle or OPSB when they are on song would more than compete at Sydney 2nd grade level / possible lower 1st grade level. The Life program in particular is fantastic.

Saying the talent isn't there to develop the game is a bit inaccurate though - the talent is certainly there (as evidenced by the shear playing numbers country wide and the recent USA hitout against NZ Maori) , its just syphoning the talent into a viable competiton that is the challenge.

Watched both the Denver/SFGG and Glendale/Ombac games last night. Denver starting to find some form with a boil over win against previous undefeated SFGG and Glendale shooting to the top of the table with a comprehensive win over OMBAC.

Denver are starting to jell and find some comibinations after a rough start to the competition. San Fran looked uncharactarstically flat with many mistakes. Their coach was pissed after the game. Glendale are starting to look like real contenders too , Snyman is really starting to get them going. OMBAC are really a one man team with Zac Pangalenin steering the ship.Commentators were extremely annoying with their constant errors of players names in both who they were and pronunciation (even though Ive seen the exact same commentators say them right in other streams over the last couple of years) .

WorkingclassRugger - genuine question - what is your connection wth USA rugby?


I should clarify something here. I didn't mean that I thought the talent wasn't there. On the contrary, I believe there is sufficient talent to create at the very least a competition equivalent of the Shute Shield almost immediately if they chose to look toward a more regional city based competition. An argument could be made that the standard may even be higher. Perhaps not quite to the level of the ITM Cup but certainly with the ability to rapidly close the gap.
 

exISA

Fred Wood (13)
I should clarify something here. I didn't mean that I thought the talent wasn't there. On the contrary, I believe there is sufficient talent to create at the very least a competition equivalent of the Shute Shield almost immediately if they chose to look toward a more regional city based competition. An argument could be made that the standard may even be higher. Perhaps not quite to the level of the ITM Cup but certainly with the ability to rapidly close the gap.

See this I agree with - but it reads so much differently to your previous comment on the page before (and yes I read the whole thing again) .
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)


I'm very far from sold on the concept of using an NFL player that retired half a decade ago to promote rugby to youth by any means - and I'm absolutely disgusted that they actually incorporated him into the Olympic Development group. Let's keep pissing away our very limited resources and see where that gets us.

How many clubs could have used that money to reinvest in developing their own facilities, youth programs, local promotion, etc?
 

Antony

Alex Ross (28)
I'm very far from sold on the concept of using an NFL player that retired half a decade ago to promote rugby to youth by any means - and I'm absolutely disgusted that they actually incorporated him into the Olympic Development group. Let's keep pissing away our very limited resources and see where that gets us.

How many clubs could have used that money to reinvest in developing their own facilities, youth programs, local promotion, etc?


Truth.
 

Fly

Bob McCowan (2)
Just out of curiosity has anyone on the forum personally or had any friends play any Rugby in the US ? And if yes what clubs? Curious to hear about the club competition over there and the standard, and how far they may be off from having a fully professional competition? Seems like there are plenty of Aussies over there or that have been over there


I was born and raised here but was in the US for a long time. Happy days.
Played for, among others, San Francisco Golden Gate for nearly 10 years (2000-2009) during the early halcyon days of the Rugby Super League. The quality was very good to be honest.
As a marker in terms of quality - i'd say it was a handy / mid range 1st Grade D1 level here in NSW Subbies.
As a further indicator, I'm back now, i'm 38 years old and still playing in D1 Subbies.
NorCal Rugby is where its at - a lot of imports initially but that has changed dramatically over the last few years.
USA Rugby truly is the "Sleeping Giant". It just depends on when - or if at all - it wakes up.
Its home to a huge population base and could have access to some really amazing athletes, the key is as always, getting Rugby balls in the hands of kids rather than the norm - which is usually not until college.
It also has 2 other HUGE elephant in the rooms barriers.
1/ America is a litigious society - there will always be an over riding fear for Americans in allowing their young kids (and I'm talking 7/8/9 years olds) play Rugby as its perceived as a violent game. They will however let those same kids play Pop Warner Football - which is much more dangerous. Rugby is thought of as dangerous and as such if those kids get hurt i'm suing your ass. Go figure.
2/ Rugby is a flowing game - for the most part - scrum resets aside. But my thoughts on how to fix that should be on another thread. (Let's just say I'm a flyhalf - and the believe the forwards should just go and stand over the corner at set piece time, lean on each other and stay out of the way) :p
Because it flows there is very little time during a telecast - aside from half time - to put in your 30 second Doritos or Budweiser commercial. Less advertising $ makes it harder to sell to TV networks which in tunr carry the game to a wider audience.

Get around these barriers (and get younger kids to play the game more frequently) and they have a shot.
Everything changed for US Soccer during the late 80's - early 90's.
So called "Soccer Mom's" were the catalyst for Bill Clinton and the Democrats victory in 92'.
These Soccer Mom's started having their young Children - (7/8/9 year olds) play Soccer as their first sport of choice - and consequently - 20 years later - the US Soccer team has until recently been in the top 10 in the world. (now 13th - still 2 places ahead of England - of which Soccer is their national pastime)

Don't poke the Giant.
 

SevensPhD

Chris McKivat (8)
How many clubs could have used that money to reinvest in developing their own facilities, youth programs, local promotion, etc?


How much money are they paying him? I don't think any. If Ahman Green, as a sport celebrity, can help lure a few athletes from a different demographic into rugby, then why not use him? It doesn't have to be ex-NFL players he persuades, but maybe some kids that look up to him.

Ahman was (maybe still is) a better athlete than any USA Rugby player, but to develop a rugby IQ in your 30s is difficult. If USA Rugby can get that type of athlete at age 15, and then have them forgo a division 1 NCAA football or basketball scholarship (and dream to play NFL or NBA) to play rugby, THEN USA would be a serious contender.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
How much money are they paying him? I don't think any. If Ahman Green, as a sport celebrity, can help lure a few athletes from a different demographic into rugby, then why not use him? It doesn't have to be ex-NFL players he persuades, but maybe some kids that look up to him.

Ahman was (maybe still is) a better athlete than any USA Rugby player, but to develop a rugby IQ in your 30s is difficult. If USA Rugby can get that type of athlete at age 15, and then have them forgo a division 1 NCAA football or basketball scholarship (and dream to play NFL or NBA) to play rugby, THEN USA would be a serious contender.

I don't think they are paying him either. My argument was based around the resources that are being put in to training, feeding, all of the other things that go on the bill of USAR that occur at the OTC. These same resources could have either been used to develop someone who actually has a chance in hell of representing the USA or in my pipe-dream scenario, redistributed to other areas of the grassroots game.

How many kids today look up to Ahman Green? Let's be serious here. He hasn't been a player of any real notoriety within the NFL for nearly a decade now. How many little kids are going to see Ahman Greens' name attached to something about Rugby and even have a clue who that is? I don't see any actual conversions to rugby coming as a result of this.

I was never expecting him to be used to attract ex-NFL, that goes completely the opposite direction of my views on all of this anyway.

If Ahman wants to learn rugby and promote rugby than he can learn rugby with a club (those things that are literally the heart and soul of rugby in the USA) and promote rugby without USAR wasting valuable resources parachuting him into the OTC.
 

WorkingClassRugger

Michael Lynagh (62)
What about Dolan? He got a run for Leicester yet?


Northampton as well. Think he's featuring more in the A-League at the moment. Hopefully he'll get his opportunity soon. The bloke a Leicester is Blaine Scully who has become a regular fixture in the Tigers starting line up at 15.

If you want to find out more visit thisisamericanrugby as they do regular pro updates of American playing abroad.
 
T

tranquility

Guest
I meant Dolan.. I haven't heard of the others, I will have a look at the website when I get a sec.
 
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