Union or League? The pros and cons for school leavers

[WorkingClassRugger]

yeah, yeah, yeah.i want to see tries scored. 7-5 scorelines or worse 9-6 bore me witless. 5 tries to 4 the other week blacks v wallabies and great entertainment. good that kids can tackle but give me one who can run!

I don't think anyone would disagree that tries are one of the most entertaining aspects to the game. However, at the same time. Resilient defence is just as enthralling and an essential element to a successful game.

With out defence you pretty much have a glorified game of touch. It's something RL seems to have forgetten, particularly the fans. Tries shouldn't purely be the only element of the game. For a game to be a complete package it requires strategy and risk.

If you wanted to see a game played by the percentages, that has relatively poor defence and tries a plenty because of those deficiencies. Then league would suit you fine.

 

[Top Cat]

But esp with kids those that haven't played RL are well behind those that have as far as tackling ability.

Strangely enough I found a link to the official photographs of the U16's Nationals yesterday and looked through them. The majority of the photos show show upper body tackles and although there are times that when they are effective you can also see the numerous times when the tackler struggles to cope with the momentum of the attacking player.

There are a few great shots of lower body tackles and then I found this.

http://www.melbastudios.com.au/photo_orders/client/photo/QWF-6XBM/4Z1-58CN/4/9237c153aedfa3e469051262b29e2861

The four frames before it are great shots that show how it was excecuted. He is one of the best tacklers around and he hasn't played league......

 

[hawktrain]

I don't think anyone would disagree that tries are one of the most entertaining aspects to the game. However, at the same time. Resilient defence is just as enthralling and an essential element to a successful game.

With out defence you pretty much have a glorified game of touch. It's something RL seems to have forgetten, particularly the fans. Tries shouldn't purely be the only element of the game. For a game to be a complete package it requires strategy and risk.

If you wanted to see a game played by the percentages, that has relatively poor defence and tries a plenty because of those deficiencies. Then league would suit you fine.

To be fair, league commentators did go gaga over the Roosters v Manly qualifying final this year that had a scoreline of 4-0. It seems they enjoy defensively-oriented games, unless it's a rugby game in which case it's boring, and they enjoy high scoring games unless it's rugby in which case rugby players can't tackle.

 

[Ted S]

we can all find examples of of RU only players being good defenders and RL players being poor defenders (look at the U20s ).

But to say that RL defense is not as good as RU defense is nothing short of comedic. Its also not comparing apples to apples as there are different intents during the tackling process.

 

[lily]

What's even funnier is the fact that this thread is about development not some loig vs rugby rant. The fact that some even use the term loig is patronising. Why do some not understand that we don't need to cannibalise each other. Lastly, I don't like Rugby League but realise it's not going anywhere.

 

[rugboy]

Interesting note the team as selected by LG as the first post all bar one, Kellaway are now league players. Noting that Jack Tuttle is playing 20s for the broncos thus year.

 

[Runner]

interesting who have been the most effective defensive coaches of the Wallabies and from where did they come?

 

[Tahspark]

Interesting note the team as selected by LG as the first post all bar one, Kellaway are now league players. Noting that Jack Tuttle is playing 20s for the broncos thus year.

In addition to Kellaway, Jonah Placid's present and future appears wedded to rugby. Given his role in assisting Easts to a premiership in the Brisbane comp in 2013, he could be a smokey for a Reds jersey at some stage this season.

 

[Tahspark]

Also, a quick Google search reveals that the Bill Valetini, who Lee chose at no. 14 in his team of the U16s nationals tournament in 2011, was awarded the Rebel Rising Matt Cockbain Award at the Rebels awards night in July 2013.

So out of Lee's 7 chosen backs from that 2011 tournament it would seem that 3 are still playing and likely to continue to excel at rugby.

 

[Tashara]

I would imagine every person is different and how you define success or what you want out of rugby (league or union) will be different. Whether it's about money, fame, development etc. I can't help to feel that if you play what you love doing, you'll have a greater chance of success whatever your motives are. If you love what you are doing, you'll be more prepared to do the things needed in order to be the best you can be.

 

[Newbie]

Following on from Rugboy I have noticed that Jack Tuttle has been selected at centre for the upcoming Bulldogs v. Broncos U20's match this Friday (7 March 2014).

Interestingly enough he will be up against another league convert! I really did rate this lad, especially after he made the Australian A (U18) side in 2011 as an U16!

 

[Folau]

Following on from Rugboy I have noticed that Jack Tuttle has been selected at centre for the upcoming Bulldogs v. Broncos U20's match this Friday (7 March 2014).

Interestingly enough he will be up against another league convert! I really did rate this lad, especially after he made the Australian A (U18) side in 2011 as an U16!

There are a few other boys as well playing NRL now, Roosters Taane Milne NSW 1 ( Aust schools rugby ), Parramatta Joey Lussick NSW 2 ( Aust schools league ), Parramatta Tepai Moeroa NSW 1 ( Aust schools rugby ), Manly Charlie Taylor NSW 1 ( Aust school league ) Good luck to all these boys and who knows we could see them later running around in a wallabies jumper.

 

[Newbie]

There are a few other boys as well playing NRL now ...

Yes very true Folau!

Other lads (and especially the one's you have named above) were the subject of earlier discussion (and much debate) in other threads on G&GR.

Interestingly enough, I was going through the 2014 NYC teams and found the following ex-rugby reps:

Clint Gutherson - Manly NYC/NRL - Australian U18 Sevens ​

Eric Aukofolau - Parra NYC - Australian U18 Sevens ​

Duncan Paiaaua - Broncos NYC - QLD U16 ​

Brandon Mafi- Canterbury NYC - NSWSRU U16 ​

Michael Morgan - Canterbury NYC - NSWSRU U16 ​

Viliame Kikau - Cowboys NYC - Fijian Schools 2013​

 

[Hugh Jarse]

@Newbie, I see that Duncan Paiaaua has signed with Reds Rugby for 2015 onward.

Harry Rorke, who went to the Car Makers Cup in 2013 after representing Aust Schoolboys in 2012, is now back with Gordon 1st Colts.

Sam Gerry-Burgess is still with Bulldogs in the Car Makers Cup. He will be looking for a NRL contract for 2015 or will he be coming back to Rugby?

Arthur Currie (St Gregs-ISA, NSW 2) is with Roosters in the Car Makers Cup.

Elliott Jennings (All Saints Maitland-CCC, NSW 2) is with Knights in the Car Makers Cup.

Evander Guttenbeill (TSC, QLD1, Aust Schools) is with Titans in the Car Makers Cup.

According the oracle that is Wikipedia, Matthew Groat played 10 first grade Loig games in 2011.

He was knocked unconscious in a pre-season game against the Broncos in 2012. He has not played a first grade fivekick game since then.

He has signed with the Dragons recently.

Poor bugger hasn't played much sport so far in his career after displaying a lot of promise early on.

A good role model for having a back up plan, because in any athletic career, you are only one bad injury away from joining the queue at Centrelink if you do not have a plan B.

Update: Groat has now signed to play in North England with Salford Red Devils, whoever they are, after not playing any NRL games with St George in the 12 months he was with them.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-league/29032778

Back up plan: Groat has studied a Certificate 4 in Fitness. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Groat

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Yes very true Folau!

Other lads (and especially the one's you have named above) were the subject of earlier discussion (and much debate) in other threads on G&GR.

Interestingly enough, I was going through the 2014 NYC teams and found the following ex-rugby reps:

Clint Gutherson - Manly NYC/NRL - Australian U18 Sevens ​

Eric Aukofolau - Parra NYC - Australian U18 Sevens ​

Duncan Paiaaua - Broncos NYC - QLD U16 ​

Brandon Mafi- Canterbury NYC - NSWSRU U16 ​

Michael Morgan - Canterbury NYC - NSWSRU U16 ​

Viliame Kikau - Cowboys NYC - Fijian Schools 2013​

Tepai Moeroa is getting some recent media coverage (Well deserved) as he develops as a professional athlete with Parramatta Eels NRL team.

How many of the former dual coders, or Loig players at "Rugby Schools" that get talked up on the Schoolboy Rugby Threads as the next big thing actually go on to a NRL career after earning some pocket money in the Carmakers Cup U20 competition?

I pretty much lose interest in the schoolboy rugby rockstars if they step off the ARU "pathway to gold" conveyor, but it seems that lots of young athletes that go to loig just seem to fade away, despite gathering rather good looking Schoolboy Scrapbooks.

Just taking a name that was subject of much keyboard action when he was not selected for Australian Schoolboys, I see that his player stats from Leagueunlimited for last year record him as playing 24 games for 0 tries, 0 goals, 0 Field Goals, 0 points. He was a wing in both codes.

Maybe the Australian Schoolboy Selectors see things that keyboard warriors and other bandwagoners can't see, or don't want to see.

 

[Ted S]

Tepai Moeroa is getting some recent media coverage (Well deserved) as he develops as a professional athlete with Parramatta Eels NRL team.

It is great to see Tepai get some press, he is playing terrific RL, to me it shows how poorly he was coached and used at New.

I pretty much lose interest in the schoolboy rugby rockstars if they step off the ARU "pathway to gold" conveyor, but it seems that lots of young athletes that go to loig just seem to fade away, despite gathering rather good looking Schoolboy Scrapbooks.

Its interesting though that most that stay in RU (or are RU boys anyway) fade into the ether never to be heard of again, except maybe some club rugby. The "pathway to gold" nowdays is more like a cliff for lemmings to fall off. Maybe this magical pathway is more for parents to have bragging rights than anything else. (def not referring to you HJ)

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ You're on the money to a degree @TedS, and I like the lemmings analogy. About 1/2 the Australian Schoolboys do not make it to Pro levels, let alone Wallaby level. In saying that it must be acknowledged that not all those who make Aust Schoolboys actually desire to be professional athletes.

Chris F-Satua and Hugo Roach are the equal most capped Australian Schoolboys of all time, yet both have been passed by others with less impressive schoolboy scrapbooks.

Of Newbies 6 names above, I only recognise Gutherson with the Manly NRL team. How have the others gone?

What is the batting average like for former Loig Schoolboys into NRL?

RU has 150 pro contracts based in Australia. With only about 10-20 % of those 150 contracts available each year, it is little wonder that young men like Fabian Natoli, Keleti Vaingalo, Tala Grey (He's come back), Lalakai Foketi head overseas to play semi pro in Europe.

RL has a lot more pro contracts available, but there are more kids trying to secure one of those pro contracts, so the chances of landing one are probably similar to that of RU.

There seems to be more "next big things" in the Qld school system, but on the rare occasion that I look into the mungo world, I do not see or hear these names mentioned 5 or so years after they leave school. Maybe it is parents and associates talking up the Emperor's fine cloth as alluded to by @Ted S.

 

[Quick Hands]

It is great to see Tepai get some press, he is playing terrific RL, to me it shows how poorly he was coached and used at New.

Unfortunately you've hit the nail on the head.

What we are seeing with the "super team" phenomenon (not just at New), is that many of the better junior players/athletes aren't coached as well as they should. They play in a team full of superstars, often mismatched against teams who have no hope of beating them and they are rarely challenged. In these circumstances, junior/school coaches content themselves with premierships - but they haven't really improved the individual players that much at all. What they've done is rely on the fact that their players are bigger, stronger and have more natural ability than their oponents.

Works well until you hit the big time and then deficiencies are cruelly exposed.

 

[rugboy]

[quote="Hugh Jarse, post: 720777, member: 2072
What is the batting average like for former Loig Schoolboys into NRL? [/quote]

HJ the thing in league is the quick ascension to the professional ranks as opposed to S15 and therefore the conversion rate for schoolboys is far higher. Below is a list of the 2012 schoolboys, the majority of whom should now be finished 20s. Of the 17 listed 9 played first grade before the age of 20. 6 of them IMO would be considered established first graders. Gutherson and Tanginoa are on the cusp.

1, Alex Johnston -souths (established)
2, Jack Goodsell
3, Clint Gutherson - manly
4, Paul Simona
5, Willis Meehan - roosters
6, Mitchell Moses - tigers (established)
7, Luke Brooks - tigers (established)
8, Matthew Lodge - tigers (established)
9, Brad Deitz
10, Jeremy Cropper
11, Kelepi Tanginoa - parramatta
12, Adam Elliot
13, Chad McGill
14, Dylan Walker - souths (established)
15, Chris Smith
16, Jai Arrow
17, Pauli Pauli - parramatta (established)

A quick look at the 2013 schoolboys shows that even though they still have another year in 20s, 5 have already played first grade, excluding Moeroa who didn't play league schoolboys. I think we have already seen with Angus Crichton the aggressive pathway they put their top young players on sees them debut quickly after school if they are rated high enough.

 

[Nifty]

Tepai Moeroa is getting some recent media coverage (Well deserved) as he develops as a professional athlete with Parramatta Eels NRL team.

How many of the former dual coders, or Loig players at "Rugby Schools" that get talked up on the Schoolboy Rugby Threads as the next big thing actually go on to a NRL career after earning some pocket money in the Carmakers Cup U20 competition?

I pretty much lose interest in the schoolboy rugby rockstars if they step off the ARU "pathway to gold" conveyor, but it seems that lots of young athletes that go to loig just seem to fade away, despite gathering rather good looking Schoolboy Scrapbooks.

Just taking a name that was subject of much keyboard action when he was not selected for Australian Schoolboys, I see that his player stats from Leagueunlimited for last year record him as playing 24 games for 0 tries, 0 goals, 0 Field Goals, 0 points. He was a wing in both codes.

Maybe the Australian Schoolboy Selectors see things that keyboard warriors and other bandwagoners can't see, or don't want to see.

Just a correction Regarding 'Just Taking a Name' Your wrong in your comment saying you checked with stats from League Unlimited for last years record. Those stats hardly ever get updated for anyone
This player you are referring to was the second highest try scorer for his NRL club last year, he has now be grabbed by the Roosters hearing on a lucrative first grade contract in the u20s and is playing very well and loves it.
I have been told just about every game he has scored including a game a week ago where he scored 2 tries and nearly got another 2 but got held up on the line,
one of those tries was a length of field try where he absolutely blitz the opposition. Have a look for yourself on the Roosters site.
Click on to news and then click onto No 4 and go into NYC gallery / round 5 and see the photos..
I think by all reports he was much happier to have made the Aust Schoolboys in league his priority and be the starting winger in One Team only of the best 17 young players in the country and for your information, hearing from a good reliable source he had Officials from Cheika camp and Aus u/20s wanting him, so Its great to hear he is doing well and the others