Under 20s

[twenty seven]

I agree - at this stage and level, ball skills should not be too much of a concern.

 

[Bradley]

I agree - at this stage and level, ball skills should not be too much of a concern.

You must be joking? Those skills are paramount to our game. Lee Grant was right; he has seen better from schools in the GPS comp and so have I. In fairness to the players concerned they have been in camp since Sunday and got hammered every day. But that's what Nuci is looking for; blokes who can produce under pressure.

 

[Spewn]

I'll say two things about this whole process and focus on U20s. One, it treats the pool of rugby players as very small. As if a few schoolboy reps are it as far as rugby talent is concerned. I am sick of these schoolboys being shoved into super rugby at the expense of 23+ year olds who put in every year at grade. Second, how did Nucifora get this high performance/under20 gig? No other applicants?

 

[twenty seven]

You must be joking? Those skills are paramount to our game. Lee Grant was right; he has seen better from schools in the GPS comp and so have I. In fairness to the players concerned they have been in camp since Sunday and got hammered every day. But that's what Nuci is looking for; blokes who can produce under pressure.

I'm sorry but you have taken me the wrong way,or rather what I wrote. What I tried to get across is that ball skills should be so developed at this stage of progress that they should not be a concern. I was not referring to poor ball skills as being acceptable. Far from it. I am a firm believer in every player, no matter what sport, focusing on basic skills and drills, to ensure a high standard, throughout a season.

 

[tranquility]

I'll say two things about this whole process and focus on U20s. One, it treats the pool of rugby players as very small. As if a few schoolboy reps are it as far as rugby talent is concerned. I am sick of these schoolboys being shoved into super rugby at the expense of 23+ year olds who put in every year at grade. Second, how did Nucifora get this high performance/under20 gig? No other applicants?

Who else would you suggest? He has won a super title and has to be one of the best credentialed coaches in the country I would have thought. I'm actually pretty glad he gets to work with them, because when he signed on in a managerial position I didn't think he would get any coaching done.

 

[Lee Grant]

Agree, and just think what if he didn't coach them. The ARU would have to spend money hiring somebody; so it makes finanacial sense too.

He wasn't the only ARU guy involved either: Pado Noreiga was running around too doing stuff. The other guys I saw were Brumbies and Tahs staff helping out. They must have been there for the camp.

Cost efficient - and also interesting for the guys involved.

But Spewn has a point about the older guys though it's not relevant to an U/20 thread - after all we have to pick an U/20 team.

The demise of the ARC has affected these guys most of all. It was a great showcase for players, coaches, assistant coaches and referees. There a player, who was not a school star, could strut his stuff with and against better players than he normally played with or against at club level and be assessed for the next step.

Now he has to rely on club rugby or hopefully get invitations to play for state A teams or the Oz Baas. But a lot lose the dream before that.

 

[tranquility]

However for those that don't the pathway does still exist as shown by Matty Brandon, and what him go this weekend if he gets on the park. Very polished number ten.

 

[Lee Grant]

Yes that is true, but I reckon with an ARC there would be a few more Mattys.

 

[Spewn]

Yes, if we leave the Nucifora spray to one side, I still believe that there is something wrong with the pathway from schoolboy to super rugby. If you compared with the NRL, and focusing on forwards, it would be extremely rare for boys to go from school straight into the NRL without first bulking up and doing the apprenticeship in u20s or Jersey Flegg or whatever it's called. No question (to quote Kafe) about the schoolboys (or some of them) ability but that does not mean get all wet about them and rush them into super rugby as performance at school level means anything. Does Fitzpatrick look like a good example on this issue?

 

[Bruce Ross]

If you compared with the NRL, and focusing on forwards, it would be extremely rare for boys to go from school straight into the NRL without first bulking up and doing the apprenticeship in u20s or Jersey Flegg or whatever it's called.

If the ARU were really serious about player development they could look over the fence and learn from the breakaway code. But there is no need to put young players on contracts only to discard 95% of them after a year or two with their only option being to go off and pick up beer money playing park football.

No, the lesson from league is to make use of the existing club structure. The investment required would be to supply each Sydney and Brisbane premiership club with a good quality gym, leaving out of course those who already had their own. Then you would need to employ a number of strength and conditioning coaches and skills coaches who would service those clubs that again didn't already have their own. With the focus on developing young players a squad of perhaps 25 at each club would be selected to undergo intensive 11-month-a-year training.

The gym infrastructure would obviously be available for the rest of the club to use as well.

This is the path to correcting the current imbalance in physical conditioning between clubs while at the same time lifting the standard and intensity of club rugby. The problem with the ARC was that its model was arse-up. Taking players away from their home locations and paying them as half-baked professionals was a far too expensive model and it really did not address the reality that player development is a year round process. Young players don't need money; they need guidance and opportunity.

 

[Spewn]

Bruce

I don't want to turn this into a debate about the ARC and clubs, but I agree with most of your sentiments. There is a need to encourage and develop the pool of all young players and not those plucked (usually on reputation) from schoolboys. People develop at different rates, have other issues that may delay things or any number of things may get in the way. Some of the best players in league, cricket or union in the past required the encouragement and support structures (like a decent gym and a good strength and conditioning coach) to develop into champions. At the moment, the opportunities lie with a few schoolboys and that restricts the player pool Australia could ultimately use.

And I don't think the 7s pathway offers much either.

 

[territorian]

Aside from the Brubbie Runners vs randwick game tomorrow at Gouldburn, the curtain raiser is ACT u20's vs randwick Colts.
This should be a pretty lively affair with some very good players on both sides.

 

[Torn Hammy]

Rugby junior development is light years behind that of the NRL.

The NRL club I know about flew 8 contracted Qld. 15 year olds to Sydney every holiday and weekend to develop and play in their Harrold Matts squad. Three of these players will play in the senior team this year.

There are 15 other NRL clubs putting in the same dedication and finances developing the potential of their (and other's) juniors. This means very few quality players slip through the net and the ones that succeed are physically impressive and skillful players.

By contrast the junior development in rugby, as Spewn says, is drawn from a very 'small pool', and the skills and physical work is generally haphazard and a couple of years behind that of the NRL boys. How many potentially great players have been passed over and lost to the game?

It is good to see clubs like Uni addressing this issue but I feel they are still getting the boys too late.

 

[dobduff11]

12. - Apo – a smokey but nobody else jumps out – (not S.Hunt)

as the older Stephano Hunt is no competition these days IMO

No love for Stefano lee I thought he would be a dead cert for 12 this year with no Coleman or Mitchell to challenge him.

Also do you really see them sticking Kimami on the wing when he played 13 last year two years young.

Ellih Bailey in with a chance of making the squad?

 

[Upright]

Assuming that the selectors will be interested in all 2010 squad members still eligible and anybody with a Super or pro academy – Tier One contract, or whatever a team calls it, this would be my guess of a 22 at the minute (though they will take 26 to the tournament):

1. - Scott Sio – Tahs Amateur
2. - Siliva Siliva – Force Super Contract
3. - PAE – Force Super Contract
4. - Greg Peterson – Tahs Pro Academy
5. - Luke Jones – Rebels Super Contract
6. - Colby Fainga'a – Brumbies Super Contract
7. - Liam Gill – Reds Super Contract
8. - Ed Quirk– Reds Super Contract

9. - Nic Stirzacker – Brumbies Amateur
10. - Kyle Godwin – Force Pro Academy
11. - Kimami Sitauti - Reds Super Contract
12. - Apo Latinupulu – Tahs Amateur
13. - Tom Kingston – Tahs Super Contract
14. - Dom Shipperley - Reds Super Contract
15. - Simon Morahan – Reds Pro Academy

Bench
16. - Hugh Roach – Brumbies Amateur
17. - Jack Kimmence – Qld A reserve
18. - Michael Stolberg – Reds Amateur
19. - Michael Hooper – Brumbies Super Contract
20. - Ed Bredenhann – Tahs Amateur
21. - Rohan Saifoloi – Tahs Amateur
22. - Jake Woodhouse - Tahs Pro Academy

Notes
• 1. Sio - Played THP yesterday but JW scrum was not great when he played there once.
• 2. Siliva – Had a top game for Force A v. Brumbies A at the beginning of Feb.
• 3. PAE – Ditto and also looked tough in a cameo at Nowra.
• 6/7 – I can't see Oz using a lineout 6 with 3 elite 7s available.
• 8. - Quirk would usually be the 6, but see above. Haven't seen Butler since school.
• 9. - Stirzacker is better than Bredenhann IMO, No surprise if Nuci thinks differently.
• 10. - Godwin was tops for Force A against the Runners in Feb.
• 12. - Apo – a smokey but nobody else jumps out – (not S.Hunt). Can Faulkner play 12?
• 13. - Kingston - though Apo and he have not been a stellar combo for the JWs.
• 15. - S.Morahan. Could be Woodhouse who starred for the JWs v. Fiji.
• 16. - Roach – Latu was very good; close call. Roach already playing tough above his years.
• 17. - Kimmence – Part of effective front row yesterday
• 18. - Stolberg – I like the looks of this big unit.
• 19 - Hooper – Put on the bench only because the Brumbies aren't using him.
• 21. - Saifoloi – can play several positions and would be reserve goal kicker.
• 22. - Woodhouse – can play 15, 13 and wing. Had a star game for JW v Fiji at 15, but maybe I over-rate him because it's the only start the JWs gave him.

Possible smokey: 10/15 Seage – quicksilver feet and as tough as nails. Could offer utility as reserve scrummie (his league position).

The backs will not be as dangerous as last year but the forwards will be tougher.

Was not present but always believe Lee provides an unbiased and objective assesment - which is appreciated. Considering the view that the skill level was down it may be a good idea for the selectors to look a little more widely! Good to see Killingworth getting a chance - will watch his progress with interest - is he playing grade this year Lee? A few names not there but whom I would expect to see pop up over the season, Tom Lamont (Syd Uni) - playing prop now but would be an excellent hooker - a bigger stronger version of Roach, Steve Cummins (lock - Wests) good propsect maybe one year early, David Hickey (Sydney Uni) - IMO outstanding flanker, am keen to see how he goes as he has been very good in the Uni trials thus far, Stuart Goodman (Syd Uni) flanker - first year out of school so may take a bit of time to find his feet,but has impressed in trials, Henry Carmichael (Gordon) 10/12 good skills,strong defender, exceptional goal kicker, was best 10 in Colts last year as an 18 year old, Dom Bower - winger (Randwick) small but has raw speed - if given the right opportunity may well progress.

Lee do you know what is happening with Ben Volavola - he came and went from Wests first grade last year?

 

[Bruce Ross]

One for next year if he keeps developing - in terms of rugby skills rather than getting bigger - would be Will Skelton. I posted this photo of him playing against Tuggeranong in the Grass Roots section but it got buried under other threads:

 

[Lee Grant]

Dobbie

You wouldn't have thought Stephano was a dead cert watching him play the other day - not that I rated him at school when I saw him in tournaments. Though it's just one game and shouldn't mean much, Apo was picked to be a starter for the U/20 wannabies ahead of him. I'd rather not use a 2010 schools player if there's a good alternative including being a robust defender, but I can't think of one. Apo beats Hunt on the defensive count too.

I put Kimami on the wing in my notional side to get the good players in the XV. Kingston is a contracted Super Rugby player now and has had a few top games with the Junior Waratahs this year. He'd be the best 13 in the country I reckon who is age eligible though I've seen none of the Qld lads this year apart from the other day. Faulkner looked very good though.

I didn't like Kimami's play as a centre for the U/20s last year. He played the position like a league player: always trying to beat his man one on one like in a WWW bout. With fewer defenders in league that is appropriate but in union, until he learns to give golden balls, I'd put him in his school position: on the wing. There his one on one stuff has a bigger dividend as we saw 2 years ago from him.

By contrast Kingston knows how to give the golden ball.

Nuci used Kimami at 13 last year and could again, I suppose but it may have been a case of centres Mitchell and Bennetts both being injured and/or wanting to have all of L.Morahan, Toua and Shipperly in the back 3 - all of them better footie players than Kimami, and faster.

 

[Bradley]

One for next year if he keeps developing - in terms of rugby skills rather than getting bigger - would be Will Skelton.

That's scary stuff Bruce. I believe he has been elevated to the Waratah Academy and he was seen training with the Oz 20's squad at Moore Park. He did not attend this week's camp at Narrabeen though. Is he injured?

I heard a number of injured players were sent home from the Narrabeen camp after they were assessed by medical staff on arrival. Stirzacker was one of them.

 

[Lee Grant]

Upright

I'm not the expert on the club scene but:

1. Killingworth - He's at the Rats, and with Beau Robinson and Michael Lipman playing Super rugby and 2nd Graders Ale and Greenway leaving the club, it's odds on that he will be playing grade. He played well in the trials last week by all accounts and then had a blinder in the U/20 trial on Wednesday. I don't agree with schoolboys from the year before playing grade straight off and especially forwards but such is the lack of depth at the club they will probably grade him.

2. Volovola is at Southern Districts this year but I doubt if he will be in 1st grade. Saw him starting for the Junior Tahs v Samoa A (IIRR). He was OK but is not as good as Saifoloi who is also at the Rebels and there are other contenders as well.


One of my regrets is that I don't get to see Colts rugby. I either watch Joeys play or the Rats when the short GPS season is over and sometimes Manly. Watching Colts would spread me too thin and jumping to the other grounds would be a problem. I've seen all the lads you mentioned when they were at school; so it's good to see them going well. I usually don't get to see them again until they make a Junior Tahs team though the odd one pops up in 1st Grade on the ABC fairly soon after school.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

One for next year if he keeps developing - in terms of rugby skills rather than getting bigger - would be Will Skelton. I posted this photo of him playing against Tuggeranong in the Grass Roots section but it got buried under other threads:

Jeezus he's a big fella. With time in a regular professional training program and that boys could be even more than the beast he is now.