TPN

[qwerty51]

Some of these are the same arguments as Eddie Jones put forward in 2001, from which we're only now recovering as a scrummaging nation.

Yep. When I read "lack of workrate" I almost spewed.

Some people here are severely misguided judging front rower performances and they wonder why we have a poor scrum.

Surely we'd have to be the only fans in the world where the workrate of a frontrower is being scrutinised?

 

[Richo]

Yes. Surely after watching the Wallabies lose test after test due largely or in part to a poor scrum, you'd think folks would have figured out that it's kind of an important part of the game.

 

[waratahjesus]

For all this talk of TPN and his dominate scrumaging, it hasn't really improved the performances of the Tahs this year.

If you had props of Robinson, Kepu, Palmer & Slippers ability I doubt you would see some one like Hanson under much trouble at scrum time compared to the usual pressure placed on the Wallabies pack.

The Tahs performance isn't due to TPN or the forward pack, it's due to poor execution and finishing in the backs, I think maybe you are expecting to much from a tight five player to influence results for an entire team.

 

[Jiggles]

Some of these are the same arguments as Eddie Jones put forward in 2001, from which we're only now recovering as a scrummaging nation.

I don't think they are the same arguments at all.

Eddie favoured front row players with a wide running game and flanker skills. The general consensus here is not for players like that at all, Robinson, Palmer, Kepu, Slipper etc do not have these skills that eddie advocated and argued for. In fact I think the only front rowers with this attribute are Alexander and TPN. Hanson and Charles certainly do not have this game at all, they play it tight and make there metres by pick and drives and in the first channel.

 

[Sully]

I think it's the best test we have, ChargerWA, performance: the Tahs have been dominant against most Soup Rugby scrums, while other Australian scrums (including my own team, the Rebels) have simply been competitive. When he's off the field they're certainly not as good. For my money, any front row that can get on top of the Franks bros has earned its salt.

I think Charles's need to bait other players is a big negative in test rugby. He should stop emulating the less intelligent members of his forward pack.

 

[Groucho]

I don't think they are the same arguments at all.

Eddie favoured front row players with a wide running game and flanker skills. The general consensus here is not for players like that at all, Robinson, Palmer, Kepu, Slipper etc do not have these skills that eddie advocated and argued for. In fact I think the only front rowers with this attribute are Alexander and TPN. Hanson and Charles certainly do not have this game at all, they play it tight and make there metres by pick and drives and in the first channel.

Jiggles, I think some people have questioned whether a dominant scrum is important - that's what I was referring to.

It's an interesting debate that one. The Wallabies have still been consistently 2nd or 3rd in the world despite a perennially weak scrum, so maybe Jones was right. The problem is that we got humiliated in some very high-profile games where other teams were actually able to turn their scrum-time advantage into points. But it was in a small minority of memorable games - always a dangerous basis for decision making.

Like you say, we're lucky that we've developed some forwards who can do both.

 

[Richo]

Interesting point, but you'd need to show that whatever was providing by NOT having a strong scrum contributed to victories at other times.

 

[Groucho]

Interesting point, but you'd need to show that whatever was providing by NOT having a strong scrum contributed to victories at other times.

Jones' argument was that with a few talented exceptions, the players who are best at scrummaging are different players to those who are best at the breakdown, so he picked front rowers with a higher workrate.

It seems to be received wisdom in the NH that the best scrummagers are pot plants round the field, but maybe that's because they're given a license to be by coaches. Players like Moore and Nau are obvious examples of players who are both highly mobile and world class in the scrum. And look at how Palmer has come on - that's coaching.

I'm in the strong scrum camp regardless. We're never going to reach our full potential as a rugby nation until we stop leaking tests by being driven backwards at scrum time. Fingers crossed it won't happen this year. I'd be happy with either of our first-choice hookers in that respect.

 

[Braveheart81]

Every test I can remember where our scrum gets monstered, our forward pack also gets smashed in general play.

Ireland at the RWC would be the clearest recent example.

 

[Jiggles]

Groucho the argument some seem to be making above is that with all things being the equal and the same the Wallabies scrum will go from being strong/competent with TPN on the bench, to horribly weak with Hanson/Charles on the the bench. This is a ludicrous assumption.

Braveheart that Ireland test had TPN, Alexander, Elsom and Samo starting. thats 4 players who don't play a tight game and we got dominated around the park by a pack that has 7 of the 8 play very tight.

 

[cyclopath]

Groucho the argument some seem to be making above is that with all things being the equal and the same the Wallabies scrum will go from being strong/competent with TPN on the bench, to horribly weak with Hanson/Charles on the the bench. This is a ludicrous assumption.

Braveheart that Ireland test had TPN, Alexander, Elsom and Samo starting. thats 4 players who don't play a tight game and we got dominated around the park by a pack that has 7 of the 8 play very tight.

The argument most seem to be making is that TPN is actually better than the alternatives you suggest.

 

[Jiggles]

On performances thus far this year, I don't really think thats clear cut.

 

[waratahjesus]

On performances thus far this year, I don't really think thats clear cut.

Care to expand with reasoning?

 

[cyclopath]

On performances thus far this year, I don't really think thats clear cut.

Clearly. But it seems others disagree, which was my point. Nobody was saying Charles or Hanson were weak, just that they didn't feel they were as good. There's a difference.

 

[Jiggles]

Care to expand with reasoning?

Sure. Going by the stats from Sully's article, TPN is not putting in the same number of game minutes as the other two, His number of runs are less than than Hanson, He is hitting less rucks & mauls, he is attempting less tackles and missing a greater percentage of those missed. He does have high run metres, but if you go to rugbystats.com you will see he has only 1 pick and drive for the season so far. 1 pick and drive for a tight forward. he also has significantly less tight runs i.e. 1 off the ruck. Most of his runs are in the mid field. He is simply not putting in the work required of a test match quality so far this year.

 

[Sully]

I think a lot of people are over estimating the effect a hooker has on scrums.

 

[Richo]

I think a lot of people are over estimating the effect a hooker has on scrums.

And then there were those times that Sai'a Fainga'a packed down scrums.

(Not that S. Finger is being discussed here, just to point out that not picking strong scrummaging hookers has a recent poor record too).

 

[waratahjesus]

Sure. Going by the stats from Sully's article, TPN is not putting in the same number of game minutes as the other two, His number of runs are less than than Hanson, He is hitting less rucks & mauls, he is attempting less tackles and missing a greater percentage of those missed. He does have high run metres, but if you go to rugbystats.com you will see he has only 1 pick and drive for the season so far. 1 pick and drive for a tight forward. he also has significantly less tight runs i.e. 1 off the ruck. Most of his runs are in the mid field. He is simply not putting in the work required of a test match quality so far this year.

I would suggest that you need to watch more of him. The pick and drive stat in particular is mind boggling.

 

[Jiggles]

The only Tahs game I have missed this year was last week and I make a note of watching him closely, hence why I made this thread.

 

[waratahjesus]

I think a lot of people are over estimating the effect a hooker has on scrums.

I think people underestimate the effect of a hooker at scrum time, I played hooker for 8 years, I was terrible and it affected the scrum alot. You ain't hanging there And if you are your doing it wrong.