Top 10 Scrummaging Nations in the World

[TerryTate]

During the live call on GaGR on Sunday morning the scrummaging woes of the Australian side prompted discussion of our ability in the scrum compared to other nations. What I thought would be an interesting debate is as of right now (basically a year out from the World Cup) can you rank the Top 10 scrummaging nations.

Then we will contrast this to the current IRB rankings which are as follows:
1. New Zealand
2. Australia
3. South Africa
4. England
5. France
6. Scotland
7. Ireland
8. Argentina
9. Wales
10. Fiji
(11. Samoa, 12. Italy)

What is your top 10 at this time because it should be noted that the number 12 side in the world outmuscled the number 2 side in the world in a critical set piece.

 

[baldingwingforward]

Interesting topic... Based on what we have seen over the past few months, and in particular over the past few weekends i would put it something like this:

1. France
2. England
3. Italy
4. Argentina
5. New Zealand
6. South Africa
7. Wales
8. Ireland
9. Scotland
10. Australia
11. Samoa
12. Fiji

The Aussies could be in for a torrid time at the weekend after watching what the French did to the Argentinian scrum... Also funny how the commentators keep moaning about opposition props boring in on the Aussie front row.

2 things:
Bill Young got away with it for years!
If the prop is any good he doesn't allow his opposite number to bore in on him! He might get away with it once but the next scrum he should be prepared for it...

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I would put us ahead of Ireland at the very least.

 

[Slim 293]

Interesting topic... Based on what we have seen over the past few months, and in particular over the past few weekends i would put it something like this:

1. France
2. England
3. Italy
4. Argentina
5. New Zealand
6. South Africa
7. Wales
8. Ireland
9. Scotland
10. Australia
11. Samoa
12. Fiji

The Aussies could be in for a torrid time at the weekend after watching what the French did to the Argentinian scrum... Also funny how the commentators keep moaning about opposition props boring in on the Aussie front row.

2 things:
Bill Young got away with it for years!
If the prop is any good he doesn't allow his opposite number to bore in on him! He might get away with it once but the next scrum he should be prepared for it...

There's no way Australia are behind Scotland and Ireland...

The Wallabies scrum has dominated them even when at their worst (like earlier this year)...

Wales would definitely be above South Africa...

In fact, it will be interesting to see how Wales' scrum holds up against the AB's this week...

It's a shame for Australia because last year I would've probably ranked them 4th or 5th on form...

 

[S120]

I would put us ahead of Ireland at the very least.

Definitely. Cian Healy is a very talented prop around the ground but not a great scrummager.

 

[farva]

And after the 3N, I think we are pretty even with the saffers.

Its just that we have the bad reputation. They still have a reputation of being decent scrummagers. But I dont think they are any better than us.

 

[Ruggo]

1/ England
2/ France
3/ Argentina
4/ Scotland
5/ Wales
6/ NZ
7/ Italy
8/ Australia
9/ South Africa
10/ Ireland

 

[Bullrush]

And after the 3N, I think we are pretty even with the saffers.

Its just that we have the bad reputation. They still have a reputation of being decent scrummagers. But I dont think they are any better than us.

I don't think the SA scrum would have been man-handled the way the Wallaby pack was against Italy.

I could be wrong though.

 

[Moses]

This is all a bit academic until we get a Scrummaging World Cup.

 

[farva]

This is all a bit academic until we get a Scrummaging World Cup.

Kiwis would choke

 

[Jets]

Samoa got the better of the Irish scrum a number of times in their test.

 

[Bullrush]

Kiwis would choke

We'd win everything in the years in between World Cups though...lol

 

[whatty]

May have been crap at everything else on the park but cant think of many occasions the bok scrum has been shoved around!

8th lol....

 

[farva]

It got shoved around by both tri nations opponents last year.

The boks scrum was nothing to write home about. There was (is) a hooker at 3, who is apparently too important to be dropped and when Beast was there, he was very good in the loose but wasnt setting the world alight in the scrum.

 

[MrMouse]

I think it's worth noting that, like in rugby, a worse scrum can beat a better scrum on its day. It's not an infallible system.

I reckon my list would look something like:

1. France (+4)
2. Italy (+10)
3. Argentina (+4)
4. England (=)
5. New Zealand (-4)
6. South Africa (-3)
7. Wales (+2)
8. Australia (-6)
9. Scotland (-3)
10. Ireland (-3)

I think a couple of the Pacific Nations scrums could be up there if they had better coaching and stamina. Likewise, perhaps, the Romanians? Who knows... Sure it's an academic exercise but it's interesting. Italy and Australia are the only two with >5 placing differential by my rankings. Poor Fiji drops from the top 10.

 

[MrMouse]

I do think that all those rankings could change significantly in the next twelve months, too. For instance, if SAf play Smit as bench hooker not starting tighthead it could immediately improve their ranking... Similarly if Sheridan pops a hammy, England drop a couple of places etc etc.

Am I being too kind to Italy because of Castrogiovanni, an idiot ref, and the fact that we just beat them? Perhaps...

 

[Blue]

It got shoved around by both tri nations opponents last year.

The boks scrum was nothing to write home about. There was (is) a hooker at 3, who is apparently too important to be dropped and when Beast was there, he was very good in the loose but wasnt setting the world alight in the scrum.

Uhm, hang on. Smit played 2 this year and Beast did not play 3N at all. What year are you referring to?

The Smit at TH experiment got dropped halfway theough last year's EOYT (thankfully), and a front row of Botha/Smit/Beast went on to hammer the Irish scrum.

The Boks had the better of the Wallaby scrum in both encounters here in Aus this year (largely thanks to a massively improved Steenkamp at LH), while Australia somehow turned that around in the return match in SA, but only just.

Beast has been brillaint in the scrums on the EYOT and Jannie du Plessis very good.

We had a pretty average few scrummaging years but our front row has come good and is a lot better than anything the Wallabies has been able to put on the park this year. Last year (and the preceding 2 at least) was 100% the opposite so maybe you haven't watched much this year? Personally I think the Wallaby scrum is not showing much improvement since the 3N, if any at all (Not trying to fish, but it has been talked up too much of late. Both Ben's in very poor form, MaaFu struggles against size, Slipper gets played by old hands even though he is physically up to it).

Based on the fact that in both Italian test, with Castro in the side, SA dominated them (including a tight head and a stream of penelaties), nailed the Irish scrum, gained parity or better the agains the Welsh:

1. France
2. England
3. NZ
4. SA
5. Wales / Italy (although the much publicised Italian scrum has been poor since the June tests this year)
6. Argentina (they are getting old and the captain has been getting hammered for Stade F - not the force they were in recent years)
7. Ireland (the Bok and NZ tests put a big question mark over all their props)
8 Australia about the same as Ireland

Te be revisited after the 6N where we will see how 1 and 2 go.

 

[Blue]

Am I being too kind to Italy because of Castrogiovanni, an idiot ref, and the fact that we just beat them? Perhaps...

Yes. I think so. See my comments on the tests in SA where they were pretty average (to my great surprise). Steenkamp (SA's LH in the June and 3N tests, now injured) got hammered in the Leicester midweek game on the 2009 tour by Castro and got his own back. Benn Robonson also had no problems with Castro before if memory serves (but he did have a more settled 2 and 3 next to him which no does not appear to be the case).

The Italian scrum was not all that dominant against the Wallabies. Let's see the 6N tests. Thet will tell us loads.

 

[Bruce Ross]

The Italian scrum was not all that dominant against the Wallabies.

Blue, thank you for sticking up for us, but if "the Italian scrum was not all that dominant", I'm starting to panic as to how we will go if we come up against a genuinely dominant scrum on Saturday.

 

[MrMouse]

a massively improved Steenkamp

I think we can agree (and most on the forum should) that Steenkamp was one of, if not the most improved player in international football this year. A truly revelatory season from a guy previously considered something of a powderpuff.

Yes. I think so...

Well, as I just said Steenkamp was most improved this year, and Benn was considered by many the best LHP running around in 08-09 so that's not necessarily damning. I agree that the 6N will tell us a lot about where the North is at, both at scrum time and generally eg whether that England game was a once off or an evolutionary step.