Tom Carter

[ned]

I refuse to read the source and so my condescension is less reality based than the statistics in question, but I 'enjoyed' watching a replay of the game today (missed it on the weekend).

If he thinks that Tom Carter's performance was the reason for, or a symptom of, the Waratah's malaise, the fox replay must have missed a lot of the alternate reality that Spiro observed.

The Tahs just failed to settle to doing simple things well when ambition failed, partly because of the bizarrely brash idea of throwing a new hooker in the deep end putting them immediately in a hole at set piece time, partly because of the conditions, partly because of the lack of hard heads to refocus them. They didn't click and they couldn't find a way out of the hole.

Good to see someone else watched the game sober. A rugby game is always won or lost up front and unfortunately the cheetahs forward pack was far more superior on the night.

 

[ned]

The "one percenters" are only relevant if you have equal or superior skills than your peers.
no one doubts his enthusiasm or desire, it's the skill set that he offers is where people disagree.
I think it is agreed by most that TC is a good athlete, that goes all day and is a good defender.
If you think that is enough in 12 in this comp, then you will love him.
I am looking for more than that. TC's limitations reduce the effectiveness of the backline & as a consequence the team.
You need to do more with your opportunities in this comp to stay in it till the end.
Seriously, either Hickey is negligent for not doing 3 on 2 drills or TC is beyond help. cos he never ever gets it right in those situations.
That is not a hallmark of a potential Wallaby, or in my opinion a starting 12 in a side with GF aspirations.

You forgot to mention that Tom Carter is the best kick chaser in Super 15, how did that happen with so many faster backs than Tom. I wish the waratahs had a handful of forwards with TC passion, aggression and tenacity, maybe then they could compete against the top NZ and South African teams. Oh by the way maybe Tom Carter is actually playing to the coach's game plan unlike some of the other Waratahs.

 

[ned]

i agree his attack at times seems one dimensional, but any back three works better off quick ball and that quick ball needs to come off breaking the advantage line not from behind it. every team needs a player capable of doing that not only in the forwards but the backs.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and stirling before him did it from 13, and they have both done this through a period of time that the double playmaker role has been used at 10/12, but at super level over the last 2/3 years that has changed considerably and now with defence being quicker off the mark again this year, having a player in closer that is able to do it and recycle ball well creates the opportunities for the team to go forward and score trys.

i remember against the reds earlier this year he was criticised for not feeding the pill on, but for someone that sits behind the posts and can watch defence coming across, this creates so many opportunities, sure the crowd doesnt get that roar going when a winger runs 10 metres before slowing down and fighting there way to the ground due to lack of space, but having a centre cut back creates so many opportunities and allows the following play to be able to use a blind side or openside play.

Well said Waratahjesus

 

[Gagger]

Great post mate. On the blog now, I hope you don't mind

 

[Lindommer]

I've watched nearly every Tahs game in Sydney live since Super Rugby started, and I must confess I prefer the vibe to statistics. The roars of the crowd when Kurtley goes for a run are counterbalanced by the groans when our Tom grasps the pill. What I can report from what I see with my own eyes is the number of times the ball dies with Carter. The Tahs have some of the best (with Horne fit, THE best) outside backs in the competition, their skillsets simply cry out for them to get the ball wide, and quickly, as often as possible. But Carter simply refuses to use his experience and skills to put an outside man into space. When he was run down last year with, what, two metres start 10 metres from the goal line we had our suspicions confirmed Tom's not the fastest back running around. Yet all here defend his decision not to pass the pill to Pakalani on Saturday night because cover was coming across to cover Afa. Now Pakalani is considerably faster than Carter, he's guaranteed to get at least 10 metres Tom can't get due to his speed before either of them would be tackled. Hasn't it occurred to you, Tom, to pass to the faster man and back him up? This is what I see live, week in week out at the SFS, Carter not participating in any sort of ensemble play with his fellow backs. And that's why Deans will never pick him, he's not a team player and he doesn't have enough skill.

Enough of the vibe. I went back over tg's excellent piece and came up with nine occasions Carter died with the ball, at 00:30, 1:00, 21:30, 34:50, 41:30, 48:50, 54:20, 64:50 and 80:00. Apparentley Tom passed the ball three times, at 67:30, 71:00 and 80:00, but fuck all come from his silky passing skills and I missed them. Or I'd turned off after 65 minutes of dross and Carter's pieces of magic didn't register. Here we were, playing the Cheetahs, a team with huge, lumbering forwards who run out of puff when the tempo's too fast for them (witness last year's falldownathon as they needed to catch their breath), a game any fool says should be played as fast and wide as possible. But, no, Tom knows better, I'll cart the ball up into the teeth of those huge Jaapie pigs. After 65 minutes af bashing himself against bigger and stronger brutes Carter obviously deduced this wasn't working and decided to try something different. Not good enough, Tom.

Statistics are well and good but there are times I prefer the vibe.

 

[Rob42]

Can I echo WJ's previous suggestion (in one of the many...many discussions on this topic) that Tahs' player ratings be listed in Tom Carters? - ie a 1.0 TC rating indicates a player who has played the full 80 minutes with passion and determination, and executed exactly what was required of them. I'd suggest that a team containing at least 4 players who rate 1.0 on the TC scale is almost guaranteed a win on any given week.

 

[waratahjesus]

I've watched nearly every Tahs game in Sydney live since Super Rugby started, and I must confess I prefer the vibe to statistics. The roars of the crowd when Kurtley goes for a run are counterbalanced by the groans when our Tom grasps the pill. What I can report from what I see with my own eyes is the number of times the ball dies with Carter. The Tahs have some of the best (with Horne fit, THE best) outside backs in the competition, their skillsets simply cry out for them to get the ball wide, and quickly, as often as possible. But Carter simply refuses to use his experience and skills to put an outside man into space. When he was run down last year with, what, 10 metres to the goal line we had our suspicions confirmed Tom's not the fastest back running around. Yet all here defend his decision not to pass the pill to Pakalani on Saturday night because cover was coming across to cover Afa. Now Pakalani is considerably faster than Carter, he's guaranteed to get at least 10 metres Tom can't get due to his speed before either of them would be tackled. Hasn't it occurred to you, Tom, to pass to the faster man and back him up? This is what I see live, week in week out at the SFS, Carter not participating in any sort of ensemble play with his fellow backs. And that's why Deans will never pick him, he's not a team player and he doesn't have enough skill.

Statistics are well and good but there are times I prefer the vibe.

i understand "the vibe" your getting at, but it Paka getting bungled into touch again after making the ten metres then the cheetahs having the ball back better than barnes kicking it out 30 metres up field and the tahs making 20 metres more from the eqaution?

your asking for entertainment over sport. i dont understand that, ive seen entertaining stuff, ive seen boring stuff, i want my team to win. they didnt on saturday but that wasnt tom carters fault and if half the rest of the team played to his level consistantly, the tahs would have got home.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Can I echo WJ's previous suggestion (in one of the many...many discussions on this topic) that Tahs' player ratings be listed in Tom Carters? - ie a 1.0 TC rating indicates a player who has played the full 80 minutes with passion and determination, and executed exactly what was required of them. I'd suggest that a team containing at least 4 players who rate 1.0 on the TC scale is almost guaranteed a win on any given week.

I may have missed "WJ's previous suggestion" on this, Rob, but I have only ever seen the concept of rating players in "Tom Carters" used as a form of ridicule on this site, as in "Nathan Grey was 3 Tom Carters" and "Grey was just like Carter, but worth about 1.4 Carters".

Not surprisingly, I much prefer your use of the term, firstly because I am an admirer of Carter as a player, but secondly in my self-appointed role as the forum grump I object to the mob vilification of any player.

I wonder what the TC rating (R42 version) would have been for the individual 'Tahs players against the Cheetahs.

 

[barbarian]

Lindo I would be far more willing to accomodate your analysis if Beale, Mitchell, Pakalani and Turner were doing great things every time they got the ball on Saturday. But the evidence suggests otherwise. Every time they had an attacking opportunity (be it a kick return or backline play) they did no better than Carter, and most of the time were tackled on or behind the advantage line by the outstanding Cheetahs defence.

In principle Carter hogging the ball is not something I like to see. But if ever it was justified it was Saturday's game. For that the blame lies solely with the forwards for not establishing go-forward ball.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Paka getting bungled into touch

It may have been just a typo, wj, or alternatively a clever coinage.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Lindo I would be far more willing to accomodate your analysis if Beale, Mitchell, Pakalani and Turner were doing great things every time they got the ball on Saturday. But the evidence suggests otherwise. Every time they had an attacking opportunity (be it a kick return or backline play) they did no better than Carter, and most of the time were tackled on or behind the advantage line by the outstanding Cheetahs defence.

In principle Carter hogging the ball is not something I like to see. But if ever it was justified it was Saturday's game. For that the blame lies solely with the forwards for not establishing go-forward ball.

While it might have been justified during a game where others around him were struggling, this type of play has not been isolated to this game. He's shown a lack of awareness to either create or pass before, both this season and last.

This may have been raised but I think he's an in-betweener that hasn't really settled on the sort of role he wants to play as a midfielder. He's not really a 2nd playmaker but the concern is that for him and the Tahs is that the guy in 13 isn't one either. Additionally, if he wants to be a crash baller or a guy that wants to take on the line more often than not, he needs a 13 that will be a distributor.

Again though if he wants to be a genuine 2nd 5/8 (ie playmaker) then he's going to have to work on his vision.

Good thing is he's still young, but I see his attack often hinders rather than ignites.

BTW excellent analysis in the opening post

 

[spectator]

I object to the mob vilification of any player.

Hear, hear Bruce. The unfortunate downside to opinion forums is the excessive vitriol directed at certain players. Too easy to do from the safety net of a couch I guess.

 

[fatprop]

Hear, hear Bruce. The unfortunate downside to opinion forums is the excessive vitriol directed at certain players. Too easy to do from the safety net of a couch I guess.

Yeah, it is clear that Carter isn't as crap as some would suggest and not as good as others seem to believe.

 

[Torn Hammy]

I had a vibe that Beale was tried at inside centre and failed. Fast, quick hands?

Tom Carter 53 consecutive games in Super rugby. Oops... another couple of facts.

 

[DPK]

Yeah, it is clear that Carter isn't as crap as some would suggest and not as good as others seem to believe.

What then of Matt Giteau? Is he as shit as everyone (I mean everyone) says he is?

 

[Bruce Ross]

I had a vibe that Beale was tried at inside centre and failed. Fast, quick hands?

Tom Carter 53 consecutive games in Super rugby. Oops... another couple of facts.

"Facts" might just be acceptable, TH. So long as you don't use statistics - they are not "reality-based".

 

[Ash]

While it might have been justified during a game where others around him were struggling, this type of play has not been isolated to this game. He's shown a lack of awareness to either create or pass before, both this season and last.

This may have been raised but I think he's an in-betweener that hasn't really settled on the sort of role he wants to play as a midfielder. He's not really a 2nd playmaker but the concern is that for him and the Tahs is that the guy in 13 isn't one either. Additionally, if he wants to be a crash baller or a guy that wants to take on the line more often than not, he needs a 13 that will be a distributor.

Again though if he wants to be a genuine 2nd 5/8 (ie playmaker) then he's going to have to work on his vision.

Good thing is he's still young, but I see his attack often hinders rather than ignites.

BTW excellent analysis in the opening post

I think this hits the nail on the head. The second playmaker the Tahs seem to use is Beale, but I think that either Carter or Horne will need to step up their abilities in that regard. Carter so far has struggled to set up his outside man and I would've thought that Horne looks more the man for the job at the moment, but it's possible that Carter can improve his vision and distribution and set up his outside men (as in, put men in gaps, as opposed to shovelling the ball on when not crashballing).

I will say that I think that Carter has improved a lot in the last two years, especially in contact situations. This year, especially, he's gone into contact harder when carrying the ball, used his weight and driven through the tackle.

 

[mark_s]

We just need to clone T Carter and Q Cooper into a single attacking and defensive superstar and Bobs your uncle.

 

[Lindommer]

"Facts" might just be acceptable, TH. So long as you don't use statistics - they are not "reality-based".

Facts, shmacks, statistics, chopsticks, meh. What's wrong with the vibe? Go the vibe.

 

[Torn Hammy]

You're right Lindo. Who needs reality based chopsticks when discussing Tom Carter.