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Thoughts on the Wallabies 2010 Tri Nations performance.

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cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Sorry but I can't understand the criticism of genia so much. No he hasn't been breaking the line so much but that's what happens when people realize how good you are, they learn and focus on shutting you down. Burgess did have a great 20 minutes or so but hardly calls for a recall. Otherwise (as far as I see) he has still been getting to the breakdown the same, and passing is just as accurate. He has let a bit of standing at the back of the ruck for to long creep onto his game, but still has more to offer than others.

I think you're missing the point - we are generally talking about him looking like he is carrying an injury still, and has been below his best. I don't think he has been getting to the breakdown as well as usual. In that situation , it would seem giving Burgess more of a go might be sensible. I don't think too many would say Genia, in full fitness and form, would not be first pick easily. Last thing we need is Genia getting badly crocked because he is not quite right.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
I'm not really seeing what you guys are seeing. The first couple of games sure he was off the pace. But, in my opinion, he now seems to be back where he was .
 
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Nanai

Guest
Nanai, I think it is obvious (not ludicrous) that Genia is still affected by his injury. My objection was to your 'ludicrous' judgment. Many players have struggled recently with niggling injuries to the detriment of their game, including Elsom for example, and TPN.

Deans clearly feels Genia is crucial to his game plan, which is increasingly based on wide fast ball, in which Genia has a superb understanding with Cooper. IMO, that is why he played him despite the obvious injury cloud. This wasn't stupidity on Deans' part, but a calculated risk.

Nonetheless I agree that Burgess should probably be the first choice now, based simply on form. We'll see how Genia goes after a break.

The idea that we are weak in the halfback department is risible. As 'a man who self-professedly knows what he's talking about in this department', you have some obvious weaknesses in your analysis. ;-)

Right. Well, thanks for getting nasty for no apparent reason!
I wrote that statement with a hint of sarcasm hence why I wrote 'self-professedly'.

What I'm saying is incredibly simple.
Playing Genia out of form is stupid.
Playing Genia out of form with an injury is stupider.
I for one don't believe Deans falls into category 2, but if he does (and you all seem rather convinced) then I'll stick to my guns - Deans is stupid.
Regardless, the overarching point is that Burgess should've been handed the 9 shirt for at least one of the three tests.

I agree Genia is important for Deans's expansive style of game - but we've played relentlessly with width and had scintillating first halves in the last 3 tests, and had lacklustre second halves - only brought back to life a bit by the injection of Burgess. The style of game immediately changes when the pivot is changed. Burgess plays more "towards the tryline" as I said before, and I believe this is the approach we should take - a more measured, balanced one that involves a good amount of go-forward mixed in with tearing things up out wide at key moments. IMHO, and I know it's been successful in bits, but I think the current expansive approach is very hit and miss, and it's easy to focus on the times where it's worked.

Of course, Burgess is also been prone to brain explosions and running away from his support and such in the past. And yeah, maybe his long pass isn't the best in the world - but I think it's at least on a par with Genia's current pass.

Halfbacks are the triggermen of any team's attack, and their decision making, especially at test level, is utterly crucial. Genia's overuse of Cooper (whether coached or not - but I've suggested it's a bail-out, which I genuinely think it is. Chuck it to Cooper when nothing's on and he might just spark something) is what I'm most critical of right now - and sure, maybe it's because he's carrying an injury that's made him lose confidence in his running game.

But these aren't issues we should be having when we have a scrumhalf in the squad who is playing well.

Secondly, I maintain my point that we're weak in the halfback stocks. You're confusing talent with form. Genia has had a very average tri-nations. Behind him and (the previously inconsistent) Burgess the cupboard is pretty bare.

That's all I'm saying, put the vitriol away.


EDIT: and as for the "didn't Burgess get dropped for Josh Holmes?" I think that was more about giving Josh Holmes game time than punishing an out-of-form Burgess. He was playing well. And yes, Genia had an outstanding S14.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I'm not really seeing what you guys are seeing. The first couple of games sure he was off the pace. But, in my opinion, he now seems to be back where he was .

I would say he looks like he's lost a bit of his speed, snapiness in the pass and is crabbing a little from the ruck base. This could partly be the fault of the forwards not providing a good enough platform too.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
Right. Well, thanks for getting nasty for no apparent reason!
I wrote that statement with a hint of sarcasm hence why I wrote 'self-professedly'.

What I'm saying is incredibly simple.
Playing Genia out of form is stupid.
Playing Genia out of form with an injury is stupider.
I for one don't believe Deans falls into category 2, but if he does (and you all seem rather convinced) then I'll stick to my guns - Deans is stupid.
Regardless, the overarching point is that Burgess should've been handed the 9 shirt for at least one of the three tests.

I agree Genia is important for Deans's expansive style of game - but we've played relentlessly with width and had scintillating first halves in the last 3 tests, and had lacklustre second halves - only brought back to life a bit by the injection of Burgess. The style of game immediately changes when the pivot is changed. Burgess plays more "towards the tryline" as I said before, and I believe this is the approach we should take - a more measured, balanced one that involves a good amount of go-forward mixed in with tearing things up out wide at key moments. IMHO, and I know it's been successful in bits, but I think the current expansive approach is very hit and miss, and it's easy to focus on the times where it's worked.

Of course, Burgess is also been prone to brain explosions and running away from his support and such in the past. And yeah, maybe his long pass isn't the best in the world - but I think it's at least on a par with Genia's current pass.

Halfbacks are the triggermen of any team's attack, and their decision making, especially at test level, is utterly crucial. Genia's overuse of Cooper (whether coached or not - but I've suggested it's a bail-out, which I genuinely think it is. Chuck it to Cooper when nothing's on and he might just spark something) is what I'm most critical of right now - and sure, maybe it's because he's carrying an injury that's made him lose confidence in his running game.

But these aren't issues we should be having when we have a scrumhalf in the squad who is playing well.

Secondly, I maintain my point that we're weak in the halfback stocks. You're confusing talent with form. Genia has had a very average tri-nations. Behind him and (the previously inconsistent) Burgess the cupboard is pretty bare.

That's all I'm saying, put the vitriol away.


EDIT: and as for the "didn't Burgess get dropped for Josh Holmes?" I think that was more about giving Josh Holmes game time than punishing an out-of-form Burgess. He was playing well. And yes, Genia had an outstanding S14.

I'm not being nasty. I'm engaging in banter. Hence the winky smiley. ;-)

Harden up. ;-)

I hear your arguments, but nonetheless think Deans has been playing Genia with a niggling injury for strategic reasons. The tactical win is probably to play Burgess. I'm torn, personally. I'm sure the coaches are more torn.
 
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Ali'sChoice

Guest
I think the Wallabies have improved significantly since last year's 3N and they are building nicely towards the 2011 world cup. Bring back Digby Ioane, Rob Horne and a bolter like Will Chambers and the Wallabies have the best backline in the world.

BTW, are any other PR posters having trouble accessing the PR forum?
 
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Red Rooster

Guest
Tell me any halfback in the last 3 years that has looked good consistently in the Wallabies - for the first 18 months it was Burgess that could do nothing right. I put it down to communication, or lack of it. This play whats in front of you philosophy, which clearly has not worked, has been replaced with more and more structure. For me both Burgess and Genia have looked their best when Cooper is at 10 and looked their worst when Giteau is there. Without going into the phase by phase and who is calling the shots for me the quality of the communication from the 10, the difficulty of getting the ball from the rucks (ABs best at creating pressure here) and the designated system of play are the key factors in the halfback performances. They are both excellent players who are not injured or carrying injuries (too big a risk for Deans). They do not suddenly become poor so you need to consider what situational factors are suddenly inhibiting their performances.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
I think the Wallabies have improved significantly since last year's 3N and they are building nicely towards the 2011 world cup. Bring back Digby Ioane, Rob Horne and a bolter like Will Chambers and the Wallabies have the best backline in the world.

BTW, are any other PR posters having trouble accessing the PR forum?

Hi there AC. Yes, it's looking a bit dead over there.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
I thought Rob Horne bought nothing to Outside Centre while he was there. I wouldn't be moving Adam Ashley-Cooper unless Chambers had a couple of Blinders
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
I have high hopes for both Horne and Chambers. I think Horne suffered from the game plan, which seems to bypass 13. My feeling is that one of those two as 13 with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Ioane on the wings is our strongest combination. We are then also starting to have a very strong defensive lineup from 12 out.
 

farva

Vay Wilson (31)
Something I have noted with Genia is that he tends to pass the ball to the forwards not slightly in front of them. That means when the forward receives that ball he is stationary, instead of moving forward to contact. Its only a second, but its enough for the defence to rush to him before he gets to move forward. Know I dont know if that is because Genia's pass is to blame, or if it is because the forwards are too flat and a pass in front of them will mean that the pass has gone forward. Either way it is an issue, and something that can be fixed.

And AC, yes the PR forum is down and has been over the weekend. Apparently they are going to be looking into it when people get in on Monday morning (GMT).
 

farva

Vay Wilson (31)
And in regard to Horne, he was thrown into the test arena without a lot of super 14s behind him - he has missed a lot of rugby over the last two years. He showed a lot in the few S14 games he started, but I think it was too early to make the jump. Having said that, that observation is post event. I thought he would have been right before the 3N.
 
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all black rugby

Guest
better than last year. young guys starting to stamp their mark on the game. not sure if rocky is the right person to lead the team.
and matt giteau needs a good knock.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Just as an aside we really do need Burgess to get more game time. We do not want to be in a situation like when NFJ was injured from 1991 onwards, the team struggled. Again in the Gregan era when he was out of form or below his best nobody had sufficient game time to step up and fill the breach even though Whits a very good half back he just didn't get any game time to cement the training he did with the team.
 
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Nanai

Guest
Something I have noted with Genia is that he tends to pass the ball to the forwards not slightly in front of them. That means when the forward receives that ball he is stationary, instead of moving forward to contact. Its only a second, but its enough for the defence to rush to him before he gets to move forward. Know I dont know if that is because Genia's pass is to blame, or if it is because the forwards are too flat and a pass in front of them will mean that the pass has gone forward. Either way it is an issue, and something that can be fixed.

And AC, yes the PR forum is down and has been over the weekend. Apparently they are going to be looking into it when people get in on Monday morning (GMT).

Yeah, he does do this. Additionally he isn't attracting any defense, so that second is time that the defense can fully adjust to the incoming forward, resulting in players only marginally, if at all, winning the contact. Burgess delays the pass that extra fraction more consistently.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I thought Rob Horne bought nothing to Outside Centre while he was there. I wouldn't be moving Adam Ashley-Cooper unless Chambers had a couple of Blinders

The game plan in the final three 3N matches was vastly different (there actually was one) and made use of the 13 for more than just crash ball. To judge Horne on that is a bit harsh. He just isn't a crash ball player like Mortlock or Hebert (Anthony or Daniel). He is more in the mould of Little.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
If Horne stays fit he will cut up in next year's S15. As, hopefully, will Chambers, although I think Horne has more to offer than Chambers, having watched him come up through the ranks. Reds fans won't like that assessment. ;)
 
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Nanai

Guest
I like the look of Chambers... But honestly, I'm as big a Wallaby fan as anyone but let's not get ahead of ourselves. The best backline in the world fully fit?

I think the All Blacks would have something to say about that... and South Africa have us beat at 9 and in the centres too IMHO.
 
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