Thoughts on the Wallabies 2010 Tri Nations performance.

[Red Rooster]

Williams was one of my favourite players and by all accounts a great success as coach in the NH. WTF has happened then? The pigs have been an inconsistant rabble one week and then prove unstoppable for 50 minutes the next.

Mate he coached the forwards at Munster (your mother could coach them) for 2 seasons - thats the extent of the coaching experience. Coaching one of Europes best forward packs is a fantastic experience, but they were already that before he started. In terms of life experience at coaching he has only had one experience to draw from. This is why the Larkham proposal for the Wallabies is poor as to date he as no coaching experience. Its like giving the keys to your Ferrari to an L-plater (you might - I wouldn't) - they understand driving from playing video games and watching TV but the reality is very different. Not Williams or Larkhams fault - you need to look at the people doing the hiring

 

[disco]

In terms of life experience at coaching he has only had one experience to draw from. This is why the Larkham proposal for the Wallabies is poor as to date he as no coaching experience. Its like giving the keys to your Ferrari to an L-plater (you might - I wouldn't) - they understand driving from playing video games and watching TV but the reality is very different. Not Williams or Larkhams fault - you need to look at the people doing the hiring

Well said RR, I totally agree with what your saying I'd like Gaffney on board but he's tied up with Oirish, others on the board want Louden & maybe even Campo but I think Campo clashes with a few of the current Wallabies.

 

[cyclopath]

Well said RR, I totally agree with what your saying I'd like Gaffney on board but he's tied up with Oirish, others on the board want Louden & maybe even Campo but I think Campo clashes with a few of the current Wallabies.

Campo clashes with just about every-one. Although he was amazingly skilled, he never sounds like a teacher of those skills to me, and I was a huge fan of him as a player. I would bet he would be a fairly average coach. Though if he could teach a few how to punt the ball like he could in his prime, it'd be worth a bit.
As for clashing with Wallabies, maybe a few of them are a little precious about criticism from former players, and should harden up a little.

 

[Nanai]

IMHO the Wallabies had all the ingredients to take out the competition.

As a man who self-professedly knows what he's talking about in this department, Quade Cooper had a brilliant tournament and I don't think that's news to anyone.
The problem with the Wallabies this year is in the oft-neglected key nature of the halfback's role these days.
My assessment of the Wallaby tournament is that Will Genia was the man who let the ball drop - "second year syndrome" or not, and he's suffered from everyone's prophetic reactions to his supposedly prodigious talent. The fact of the matter is that the Wallaby's are still weak in the scrumhalf slot - which they have been since George Gregan's retirement.

The reason why we saw more penetration and go-forward with Burgess on the field is that he works his forwards better and is, at this stage, a more composed level-headed player (and a markedly older player too - Genia is still a baby). He doesn't have Genia's world-class skillset, but he's a big-rigged running halfback who works his forwards well and - the key difference - plays towards the tryline. Genia relies far too much on Quade Cooper and the Wallabies have been overusing their weapons out wide too early in the piece and haven't been smart about building a platform. Genia's ruckwork is pretty frantic, but his pass has slowed, his use of the forwards is often disruptive and he puts too much emphasis on the long pass to Quade as a bail-out. No doubt Quade's S14-stopping performances earlier in the year have cemented this kind of attitude in his mind.

But no team is a one-man team and the tired off-pace Quade Cooper we saw in the last test was the result of 70-odd minutes of unnecessary pressure from an impatient Will Genia.

Luke Burgess started the season on fire during Genia's absence, and was given the 20 shirt too easily when Genia became readily available once more. He's been faultless of the bench and we could just be ignoring the fact that an oft-criticised Wallaby is suddenly hitting his straps.

It's certainly happening with Kurtley Beale.

 

[Gnostic]

Campo clashes with just about every-one. Although he was amazingly skilled, he never sounds like a teacher of those skills to me, and I was a huge fan of him as a player. I would bet he would be a fairly average coach. Though if he could teach a few how to punt the ball like he could in his prime, it'd be worth a bit.
As for clashing with Wallabies, maybe a few of them are a little precious about criticism from former players, and should harden up a little.

The key. Campo's penchant for saying what he thinks, straight up with no thought for people's feelings gets a lot of people offside. Tough shit IMO, I would rather an honest impassioned critique be given than be fed what that person thinks I want to hear. It is part of being a good trainer and leader to be impartial and deliver that.

By all reports Campo's role with the Sharks was a success, but I doubt if some of the bigger egos in the Oz set up could deal with his straight shooting. I don't think that Campo has the coaching experience for a full time role and would rather him take a consultancy type role. In fact I would like a lot of our former greats to have a bit of input as consultants in their particular speciality. For example I am sure that NFJ could assist both Genia and Burgess with half back play, and both he and Eales could certainly assist Elsom in the Captaincy role. This has a bigger role in connecting the current squad to the great teams of the near past and keeps the culture alive.

 

[Gnostic]

IMHO the Wallabies had all the ingredients to take out the competition.

As a man who self-professedly knows what he's talking about in this department, Quade Cooper had a brilliant tournament and I don't think that's news to anyone.
The problem with the Wallabies this year is in the oft-neglected key nature of the halfback's role these days.
My assessment of the Wallaby tournament is that Will Genia was the man who let the ball drop - "second year syndrome" or not, and he's suffered from everyone's prophetic reactions to his supposedly prodigious talent. The fact of the matter is that the Wallaby's are still weak in the scrumhalf slot - which they have been since George Gregan's retirement.

The reason why we saw more penetration and go-forward with Burgess on the field is that he works his forwards better and is, at this stage, a more composed level-headed player (and a markedly older player too - Genia is still a baby). He doesn't have Genia's world-class skillset, but he's a big-rigged running halfback who works his forwards well and - the key difference - plays towards the tryline. Genia relies far too much on Quade Cooper and the Wallabies have been overusing their weapons out wide too early in the piece and haven't been smart about building a platform. Genia's ruckwork is pretty frantic, but his pass has slowed, his use of the forwards is often disruptive and he puts too much emphasis on the long pass to Quade as a bail-out. No doubt Quade's S14-stopping performances earlier in the year have cemented this kind of attitude in his mind.

But no team is a one-man team and the tired off-pace Quade Cooper we saw in the last test was the result of 70-odd minutes of unnecessary pressure from an impatient Will Genia.

Luke Burgess started the season on fire during Genia's absence, and was given the 20 shirt too easily when Genia became readily available once more. He's been faultless of the bench and we could just be ignoring the fact that an oft-criticised Wallaby is suddenly hitting his straps.

It's certainly happening with Kurtley Beale.

Genia was injured if you remember and most here have discussed at length how it apear he is still carrying that injury, hence he is slow to the breakdown and displayed little of his running game and on top of that his defence started to suffer from his drop in pace. I agree that Burgess was very hard done by when Genia was given the start ahead of him in the 2nd England test a week after Burgess played his best ever game for the Wallabies.

 

[Nanai]

Genia was injured if you remember and most here have discussed at length how it apear he is still carrying that injury, hence he is slow to the breakdown and displayed little of his running game and on top of that his defence started to suffer from his drop in pace. I agree that Burgess was very hard done by when Genia was given the start ahead of him in the 2nd England test a week after Burgess played his best ever game for the Wallabies.

I am aware Genia was injured but the suggestion he's carrying the injury is ludicrous. Why would he be starting tests against the All Blacks with an on-fire Burgess on the bench if he was carrying an injury that would affect his game that badly?

No coach is that stupid.

 

[Gnostic]

I am aware Genia was injured but the suggestion he's carrying the injury is ludicrous. Why would he be starting tests against the All Blacks with an on-fire Burgess on the bench if he was carrying an injury that would affect his game that badly?

No coach is that stupid.

Have a look at Genia's gate, his lack of pace around the field, even his pass from the ground. They all point to a leg/knee problem. There are plenty of precedents for coaches picking players when they are injured if they are believed to be irreplacable.

 

[Groucho]

I am aware Genia was injured but the suggestion he's carrying the injury is ludicrous. Why would he be starting tests against the All Blacks with an on-fire Burgess on the bench if he was carrying an injury that would affect his game that badly?

No coach is that stupid.

Either way, Nanai, you seem to be saying Deans is making a stupid choice. It seems rather convenient to say that one stupid choice is more stupid than the other, and use that argument to rule out the possibility that Genia is carrying an injury.

 

[Nanai]

I don't understand your criticism there Groucho, you pretty much summed up the argument, which I still think is reasonable.

Deans is persevering with Genia because he clearly sees him as more valuable to the team than Burgess. When you consider Burgess's good form versus Genia's poor form, this seems stupid. It's doubly stupid if he's also playing Genia with an injury that is disastrously affecting his form (and likely safety) against the two best teams in the world.

I'm just saying I don't think Deans is stupid enough to play a 12 test Wallaby who is both out of form AND injured over a 15 test Wallaby who is neither.

It seems much more likely that Genia is just playing badly, and is being persevered with because of three reasons.
1. Promise - Genia's form last season was spectacular, and he had a good S14. (Though, IMHO, Burgess had a pretty decent S14 too).
2. Planning - Genia's obviously been targeted by Deans as his World Cup halfback, and maybe this is an attempt to get him as much footy as possible and play him into some real form.
3. Impact - He seems to have been comfortable with using Burgess's form for impact off the bench when the forwards are tired.

I'm just saying that maybe Burgess is in the form of his career and we're wasting it on a young gun who's clearly playing poorly, for whatever reason. I disagree with Deans's logic - Wallabies should have to fight tooth and nail for their shirts.

 

[dobduff11]

"Genia's form last season was spectacular, and he had a good S14. (Though, IMHO, Burgess had a pretty decent S14 too)"

Nanai two things IMO Genia had an excellent super 14 he was one of the players of the competition, it was a bit better than good, and wasn't burgess dropped for Josh Holmes!!

Genia is still feeling the effects of the injury as Gnostic said he isn't running properly and his speed still isn't quite there but it will be there on the EOYT

Burgess is good off of the bench and should remain there for a while, Burgo had his chance and genia deserves his due to his outstanding performances over the last year or so, although thats not to say that burgess should have been dropped after the ENG game

 

[Groucho]

I don't understand your criticism there Groucho, you pretty much summed up the argument, which I still think is reasonable.

Deans is persevering with Genia because he clearly sees him as more valuable to the team than Burgess. When you consider Burgess's good form versus Genia's poor form, this seems stupid. It's doubly stupid if he's also playing Genia with an injury that is disastrously affecting his form (and likely safety) against the two best teams in the world.

I'm just saying I don't think Deans is stupid enough to play a 12 test Wallaby who is both out of form AND injured over a 15 test Wallaby who is neither.

It seems much more likely that Genia is just playing badly, and is being persevered with because of three reasons.
1. Promise - Genia's form last season was spectacular, and he had a good S14. (Though, IMHO, Burgess had a pretty decent S14 too).
2. Planning - Genia's obviously been targeted by Deans as his World Cup halfback, and maybe this is an attempt to get him as much footy as possible and play him into some real form.
3. Impact - He seems to have been comfortable with using Burgess's form for impact off the bench when the forwards are tired.

I'm just saying that maybe Burgess is in the form of his career and we're wasting it on a young gun who's clearly playing poorly, for whatever reason. I disagree with Deans's logic - Wallabies should have to fight tooth and nail for their shirts.

Nanai, I think it is obvious (not ludicrous) that Genia is still affected by his injury. My objection was to your 'ludicrous' judgment. Many players have struggled recently with niggling injuries to the detriment of their game, including Elsom for example, and TPN.

Deans clearly feels Genia is crucial to his game plan, which is increasingly based on wide fast ball, in which Genia has a superb understanding with Cooper. IMO, that is why he played him despite the obvious injury cloud. This wasn't stupidity on Deans' part, but a calculated risk.

Nonetheless I agree that Burgess should probably be the first choice now, based simply on form. We'll see how Genia goes after a break.

The idea that we are weak in the halfback department is risible. As 'a man who self-professedly knows what he's talking about in this department', you have some obvious weaknesses in your analysis. ;-)

 

[disco]

I don't think Genia has been horrible, he's definitely a marked man after last season & his super 14 form.

The All Blacks stayed tight around the ruck & made sure they didn't over read the situation as they new Genia would burn them in tight.

The Boks weren't so disciplined & often drifted away from the ruck and gave Genia space to carve them up.

 

[Gnostic]

Deans clearly feels Genia is crucial to his game plan, which is increasingly based on wide fast ball, in which Genia has a superb understanding with Cooper. IMO, that is why he played him despite the obvious injury cloud. This wasn't stupidity on Deans' part, but a calculated risk.

This is the key bit Grouch. The game plan (now that there is one demonstrably) requires fast wide ball and we know that Burgess doesn't have a reliable pass further than 10 metres. Hence why I think Deans has been praying for Genia to come good and continues to start him week in week out even though it is obvious he is struggling.

 

[cyclopath]

"Genia's form last season was spectacular, and he had a good S14. (Though, IMHO, Burgess had a pretty decent S14 too)"

Nanai two things IMO Genia had an excellent super 14 he was one of the players of the competition, it was a bit better than good, and wasn't burgess dropped for Josh Holmes!!

Genia is still feeling the effects of the injury as Gnostic said he isn't running properly and his speed still isn't quite there but it will be there on the EOYT

Burgess is good off of the bench and should remain there for a while, Burgo had his chance and genia deserves his due to his outstanding performances over the last year or so, although thats not to say that burgess should have been dropped after the ENG game

I agree Genia deserves the top position more without a doubt. But he has been struggling lately, to me and others it seems to be injury related. What I don't want to see is the old situation we had with NFJ and Gregan where the backups never got any meaningful game time. If Genia is struggling, start Burgess and see if he can take this chance.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Genia's best is still better than Burgess' best, but unfortunately we haven't seen Genia's best this test season. Burgess has made some great steps forward in the internationals this year and is an excellent backup now, but Genia's form last year and in the S14 made his starting selection a no brainer for me. He is battling at present, but I predict some rest will do him the world of good. His combination with Cooper is first class and something that could contribute to the Wallabies becoming a very good team. However, his position should never be rubber stamped and I would say that he should start in HK and depending on his performance, injuries etc, should then be assessed for the European tour after that (as a starter, that is). If there is no improvement, Burgess should get a shot at it.

We have genuine competition for the 9 jersey and I think that is a good thing.

 

[Groucho]

I agree Genia deserves the top position more without a doubt. But he has been struggling lately, to me and others it seems to be injury related. What I don't want to see is the old situation we had with NFJ and Gregan where the backups never got any meaningful game time. If Genia is struggling, start Burgess and see if he can take this chance.

cyclopath, the irony is that Burgess does have a good long pass. We've seen it many times. But as several posters have pointed out, it hasn't been reliable in the past: for every three good ones there is one in the stands.

I agree - give him some solid game time and introduce some proper competition into the halfback race. But make him play the current plan for better or worse.

The perfect halfback would be a combination of Genia and Burgess. I think both players have the capability to deliver this.

 

[Groucho]

Genia's best is still better than Burgess' best, but unfortunately we haven't seen Genia's best this test season. Burgess has made some great steps forward in the internationals this year and is an excellent backup now, but Genia's form last year and in the S14 made his starting selection a no brainer for me. He is battling at present, but I predict some rest will do him the world of good. His combination with Cooper is first class and something that could contribute to the Wallabies becoming a very good team. However, his position should never be rubber stamped and I would say that he should start in HK and depending on his performance, injuries etc, should then be assessed for the European tour after that (as a starter, that is). If there is no improvement, Burgess should get a shot at it.

We have genuine competition for the 9 jersey and I think that is a good thing.

Yes, that is what I trying to say.

 

[Utility Back]

Sorry but I can't understand the criticism of genia so much. No he hasn't been breaking the line so much but that's what happens when people realize how good you are, they learn and focus on shutting you down. Burgess did have a great 20 minutes or so but hardly calls for a recall. Otherwise (as far as I see) he has still been getting to the breakdown the same, and passing is just as accurate. He has let a bit of standing at the back of the ruck for to long creep onto his game, but still has more to offer than others.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

As I said, Genia is still the number one choice, but he hasn't been as good in the 3N as his S14 performances.