The Wallabies Thread

[Braveheart81]

Fuck BH

All that count are points on the board.

You can put all the "spin" on it as you like but .

No one is trying to argue that points conceded isn't relevant.

In a discussion about defence it is relevant though.

If we hadn't conceded any points but the opposition had made 10 line breaks and we'd missed 40 tackles but by some miracle they'd dropped the ball over the line 5 times do you think the analysis would be that our defence was good because we didn't concede any points? Of course it wouldn't.

Of the tries we gave up on poor errors, only the DHP one is really relevant to the team's defence. Diffusing cross field kicks is certainly a defensive issue.

 

[barbarian]

My post was in relation to the performance of Nathan Grey. While we all love to pile on him from time to time, it's worth noting our defensive patterns were fairly solid in these games.

You can't blame Grey for a charge-down try, or an intercept. There are plenty of people you CAN blame, of course, but that's not relevant for the purposes of this discussion.
.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Well, maybe the true indication and measure of the efforts of Grey's defensive patterns will come with the tests in the RC.

Just quietly I am a wee bit fearful that our great defensive patterns orchestrated by Nathan may come up short, particularly against the All Blacks.

Remember that old saying:
"Defence wins games"

 

[Ignoto]

Statistically speaking, we played pretty much bang on average in the June matches as we did in the first three matches on the EOYT. I had a quick look at ESPN's stats for each game. The missed tackles were probably made to look worse due to the mistakes we made leading up to the tackle or the field position in which the missed tackle occurred.

Tackles
Made Tackles Missed Tackle Succes Defs Beaten
France 142 26 85% 26
Scotland 139 16 92% 16
Wales 115 14 88% 14

Fiji 114 25 82% 25
Scotland 115 14 89% 14
Italy 96 10 91% 22

 

[mark_s]

The Wallabies defence was good in 2015 under Grey, I think in both the TRC and the RWC, and at the Waratahs in prior years. Plus Cheika likes working with him. I can see why he would move to be full time with the Wobbs.

 

[Scrubber2050]

^^^^
If he can get the gig, HE should grab it with both hands.

Don't think there would be many opportunities available to him elsewhere.

 

[Twoilms]

No one is trying to argue that points conceded isn't relevant.

In a discussion about defence it is relevant though.

If we hadn't conceded any points but the opposition had made 10 line breaks and we'd missed 40 tackles but by some miracle they'd dropped the ball over the line 5 times do you think the analysis would be that our defence was good because we didn't concede any points? Of course it wouldn't.

Of the tries we gave up on poor errors, only the DHP one is really relevant to the team's defence. Diffusing cross field kicks is certainly a defensive issue.

Yeah i actually have to agree with Scrubber on this one. Defence comes down to protecting your line from the opposition. This doesn't stop being a consideration when you are in possession. A poorly executed exit kick, when under pressure on your own line, resulting in a charge down and try is poor defence.

To say 'well he scored a try but our defence was fine' is a bit off.

I'd be very surprised if Grey's role was purely 'line defence'. If it is then that's pretty shit. Compartmentalizing our game is not helping us. Look at transitional phases. Without fail at least once per game we will get caught out by a quick throw or tap.

 

[Braveheart81]

Yeah i actually have to agree with Scrubber on this one. Defence comes down to protecting your line from the opposition. This doesn't stop being a consideration when you are in possession. A poorly executed exit kick, when under pressure on your own line, resulting in a charge down and try is poor defence.

To say 'well he scored a try but our defence was fine' is a bit off.

My guess would be that defence coaches aren't the ones in charge of training when the team is working on exits.

Do you think Nathan Grey now takes over the attacking training sessions because we've thrown two intercept tries in the last fortnight and that is his responsibility?

 

[Micheal]

My guess would be that defence coaches aren't the ones in charge of training when the team is working on exits.

Do you think Nathan Grey now takes over the attacking training sessions because we've thrown two intercept tries in the last fortnight and that is his responsibility?

Madness.

 

[Twoilms]

My guess would be that defence coaches aren't the ones in charge of training when the team is working on exits.

Do you think Nathan Grey now takes over the attacking training sessions because we've thrown two intercept tries in the last fortnight and that is his responsibility?

I don't suppose he leads it no, but i don't think he should be heading to the pub either? surely the defense coach should have input on attack and vice versa.

You know, something as simple as 'if you do x we'll be exposed in this way'. You know, collaboration, teamwork etc.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't suppose he leads it no, but i don't think he should be heading to the pub either? surely the defense coach should have input on attack and vice versa.

You know, something as simple as 'if you do x we'll be exposed in this way'. You know, collaboration, teamwork etc.

The defence coach is presumably directing the defensive team in that drill working on putting pressure on the other team running their exit strategy.

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[Twoilms]

The defence coach is presumably directing the defensive team in that drill working on putting pressure on the other team running their exit strategy.

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Something else we are pretty garbage at.

 

[dru]

Exit drill:

OK you lot run around like headless chickens. You over there start remonstrating at the ref. Now my halves, counting down - 3 -- 2 -- 1 -- PANIC!

Nope, not good enough, you cleared nearly 10 yards. Where's the headless chickens? Yes you lot, what did you do, fall over in front of the blocker or something? How do you expect the opposition to charge down if you get in the road?

Do it again, we're not leaving till you have it perfect, though I am a little concerned that the headless chickens need more fitness to do the job justice.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Braveheart ^^^^^^^

I'm fairly sure that you understand that in rugby we only have ONE team of players and they are expected to undertake both Defensive and Offensive roles.

NFL is different !

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The fact remains though, the defence coach is not responsible for a lock throwing an intercept pass in his own 22 for the opposition to pounce on and score. The tackle completion stats are pretty relevant and not too bad. Had we shown greater composure against the Scots there would have been 14 fewer points conceded. I'm not going to climb all over Grey for the loss and the near miss. I reckon he did his job.

 

[Joe Blow]

No, the defense coach is not responsible for charge downs etc. However, the Tahs have shipped an average of 34 points a game this year and in 2016 the Wallabies defensive record was not great.
No question that Grey has a good pedigree but he does need to devise something more effective for the Wallabies.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

No, the defense coach is not responsible for charge downs etc. However, the Tahs have shipped an average of 34 points a game this year and in 2016 the Wallabies defensive record was not great.
No question that Grey has a good pedigree but he does need to devise something more effective for the Wallabies.

Won't argue with that and I made a similar point last year in the England series.

 

[dru]

Personally I think it is excuses, and at this point I feel handing excuses to this mob does us no service at all. What was it, we played rank 5, 10 and 15? But we're going to argue over which points should count against the defence coach and which dont? Really?

Just wait for the black jumpers.

Grey has no proven ability at Soup. The strangeness is only matched by an attack coach who has little to boast about in terms of attack at Soup level. Is someone getting ready to explain statistics away from Bernie?

The set up as far as I can tell (reading the analysts) is conservative in attack re the forwards (pod formation matching like to like), and unusual in defence in the backs (set up lines that open channels for the opposition).

You cant knock them for testing odd combinations here, but it's not working. Sometimes its tricky to part the creative from the clueless, but I'll be guided by the W/L ratio here.

Oh yeah, lets put it down to fitness. If only these blokes were fit enough to implement Cheika's scheme. Hell that'll do it, palm off responsibility for yet another season.

Anyone else here remember Cheika as Soup coach responding to Link's concern about Skelton's fitness? Goose and gander stuff.

The stat adjusters might not like it but I'll be focusing on "goose" till something convincing happens to the contrary.

Little reason to suspect this is immanent.

 

[Brumby Runner]

The Wallabies defence was good in 2015 under Grey, I think in both the TRC and the RWC, and at the Waratahs in prior years. Plus Cheika likes working with him. I can see why he would move to be full time with the Wobbs.

The defensive patterns were quite poor. Remember all the overlaps that opposition teams were creating and the criticism levelled at Henry Speight for getting lost in the 13 Channel? (and Sefa Naivalu suffered the same when he came on). It was only the covering defense that kept the scorelines under some sort of control.

 

[jimmydubs]

No, the defense coach is not responsible for charge downs etc. However, the Tahs have shipped an average of 34 points a game this year and in 2016 the Wallabies defensive record was not great.
No question that Grey has a good pedigree but he does need to devise something more effective for the Wallabies.

He has good playing pedigree. But does he have good coaching pedigree? We have to remember they are two different things.
How many WRC winning coaches were former test players (honestly I don't know)?