The Role of Private Schools in Australian Rugby

[Bruce Ross]

IMO we need more missionaries that have his zeal and then accept a bit of stuff that is over the top. We are not going to progress using company men.

A typically astute point, LG.

In any field of collective human endeavour, very little is achieved in the absence of leaders and drivers. I have gradually come to the conclusion that the latter are the more important. Great things can be achieved when you have leaders who are also drivers.

 

[Lee Grant]

The question that needs asking, however, is whether rugby's strength in the private system has taken away what impetus there otherwise would have been to expand the game to a wider base and hence stunted its overall expansion here.

there certainly needs to be a move away from the reliance on schools. But only if the opportunity presents itself, no point taking the war to the schools early.

The big rugby schools of the two main rugby states have been attracting good young players through scholarships more and more each decade. You can't fault families for allowing their boys go to schools where, odds are, they will get a better education.

But let's not talk about that aspect in this thread as there is one in Grassroots that has already discussed most of the points - and often with some heat:

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/forum/threads/5780-School-sporting-scholarships

Such a topic has virtually destroyed some forums but by containing the virus in one thread ward, and not countenancing it in others, seems to be working.

But I digress. This scholarship practice is not going to go away whatever we write on this forum and whatever any rugby union organisation does. The challenges are to grow the sport in state schools and in junior village rugby, and if some lads are consequently taken into GPS etc schools, so be it.

But private schools are not for all lads. Some want to stay with their mates and/or are never going to be interested in academic achievement. For example, I have know a few lads over the years who were friends of my sons and various nephews at Joeys and, even dislike of boarding aside, wished they could have stayed in their local high school.We have to cater for these kids in a rugby way.

Talking of NSW now: there was a recent initiative by NSW rugby with Hills Sports High School (unfortunately I didn't bookmark the link) which appeared to be a good step as it seemed to be interested in setting up a district outpost at a school that is a powerhouse in CHS rugby, though also has league teams. Several such outposts dotted around Sydney in sports high schools and places like Prairiewood would be a tremendous initiative, at least in theory, and more importantly, something different.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Talking of NSW now: there was a recent initiative by NSW rugby with Hills Sports High School (unfortunately I didn't bookmark the link) which appeared to be a good step as it seemed to be interested in setting up a district outpost at a school that is a powerhouse in CHS rugby, though also has league teams. Several such outposts dotted around Sydney in sports high schools and places like Prairiewood would be a tremendous initiative, at least in theory, and more importantly, something different.

If they could establish even half a dozen programs of the like of the recent Hills Sports Hill development Rugby in at the very least NSW will be far richer for it. Off the top of my head similar initiatives could work out of Endeavour Sports, Westfields and my old school (who currently only really dabble in the game as a 'boarder' sport) St Gregs. With some incentive these schools along with a couple of other would have the capability and facilities (well, at least St Gregs does) to run successful and competitive teams.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

From a rugby perspective St Gregs Campbelltown is a keeper. They have awesome facilities albeit somewhat mungoball inspired.

They were unfortunately involved in the Kundayi Chuindiza "incident" earlier this year. Hopefully this will not impact on their evolving rugby programme.

Without second guessing the Coroners report which must be due soon, this tragic incident was more to do with medical issues than rugby issues.

I have now visited their premises with Junior Jarses in both a mungoball and rugby context, and am impressed with what I have seen.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

From a rugby perspective St Gregs Campbelltown is a keeper. They have awesome facilities albeit somewhat mungoball inspired.

They were unfortunately involved in the Kundayi Chuindiza "incident" earlier this year. Hopefully this will not impact on their evolving rugby programme.

Without second guessing the Coroners report which must be due soon, this tragic incident was more to do with medical issues than rugby issues.

I have now visited their premises with Junior Jarses in both a mungoball and rugby context, and am impressed with what I have seen.

With many fields, a fully equipped gym and a Olympic swimming pool it has everything it needs to present a very strong program. Personally, by looking toward Sports High Schools and other schools with a strong sporting pedigree of the likes of St Gregs their is the potential to revolutionize schoolboy Rugby. From experience many if not all of the Sports Highs and GSC operate highly professional RL programs with morning and evening sessions. In effect the 1st and 2nd squads are all but paid professionals. I noticed the difference in physical development between even the SGC 2nd grade RL players and the 1st XVs of the various GPS school during the school brief appearances in the competition.

 

[Nusadan]

Speaking of St Gregs, what of nearby Hurlstone Ag High? It's the only Sydney based government boarding high school that I am aware of and had mates of my age and older who went there and played in schoolboy representative teams...Hurlstone was a rugby school powerhouse around 30 odd years ago...

Anyone know how has that school be faring recently rugbywise?

 

[Scarfman]

So, what are the issues here? Is the question: (1) Is it a good thing that rugby is mostly limited to a few private schools? or (2) Should the ARU do something about it?

I reckon it should be appropriate for the ARU to encourage slow growth outside the elite private schools. To give more opportunities for youngsters or school teachers interested in union to really make something of it. I went to a selective state school and we played rugby. We won the Buchan Shield (U15) then the Waratah Shield. It feels like CHS has gone backwards in the last 20 years, and I think that's a shame.

At the other end of the spectrum, I don't think there's any need to mass market the game to every single Australian. I don't mind that rugby is a little elitist. I like the fact that I can support kids like Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) and the rest as essentially good young men. I would quickly lose interest (as I did in Australian cricket) when I started thinking that the players were dickheads.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

1. No
2. Yes

 

[Lee Grant]

Right Big Bum.

1. Nothing wrong with this provided
2. More work is done outside of private schools

1. Is looking after itself
2. Is disadvantaged by some the cream going to private schools but the trick is to grow the sport in that sector.

What we can't think is that it's not worth while doing the missionary work at 2. because 1. is going so well.

Oz rugby needs both 1. and 2. Let's attack the problem at 2. and not be concerned about the elitism of 1.

 

[wal]

As a teacher in public primary schools, i feel that this should be our starting place. I am a Rugby die hard, yet this year took a senior group of boys as a team to the league gala day. The boys would have been very happy to go and play at a rugby day (quite a few play ra ra on the weekends) yet there is only representative teams for rugby. The local league development officer spent days in each local school, developed teams and then provide a number of gala days for the kids to play at. They put on food, invited former league players and made a real "carnival" type day of it. The kids had a great time.

The real clincher for me was that from this four of the boys that played in the gala days then signed up with a local junior league club to play on the weekends. That is 25% of the boys that I took decided that because of these days they would like to play league. That seems like a pretty good success rate to me.

I have recently just found out that the AFL development team in Canberra (where I am), with the introduction of GWS have done the same this year and have already set the dates for their carnivals for next year. If they also get 25% of the kids that play, we know at a junior level soccer accounts for over 40% of junior sport participation, it leaves a mere 10% of kids that will possibly take up RU. Now this does not seem like a very high success rate does it.

I attended public schools throughout primary and H.S. and have always played rugby (much to my Dad's disgust) but we cannot rely on private schools and the odd player coming from the public system anymore. If we want the sport to grow and expand (I know i do) then we need the infrastructure at the junior level to develop the players.

 

[wal]

So, what are the issues here? Is the question: (1) Is it a good thing that rugby is mostly limited to a few private schools? or (2) Should the ARU do something about it?

I reckon it should be appropriate for the ARU to encourage slow growth outside the elite private schools. To give more opportunities for youngsters or school teachers interested in union to really make something of it. I went to a selective state school and we played rugby. We won the Buchan Shield (U15) then the Waratah Shield. It feels like CHS has gone backwards in the last 20 years, and I think that's a shame.

At the other end of the spectrum, I don't think there's any need to mass market the game to every single Australian. I don't mind that rugby is a little elitist. I like the fact that I can support kids like Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) and the rest as essentially good young men. I would quickly lose interest (as I did in Australian cricket) when I started thinking that the players were dickheads.

I agree, i like the fact that generally the kids that we get in rugby seem to be well rounded kids. One of the reasons that I do not watch league is that I cannot stand the mentality of the players, that they feel they are gods and should be treated accordingly, and the fact that league seems to appeal to the lowest common denominator, which in my eyes is noting short of thuggery.

I do believe though that Rugby needs a lot more exposure to wider audience than it currently gets. I know that my kids are currently at public schools because I cannot afford for them to attend a private school. Should this limit their ability to play rugby or shield them from exposure, I hope not. I would like to think that a schools job is to provide opportunity for children to make a choice as to what they are more interested in or better at. This is where the ARU can play a big role in providing resources and opportunity for schools to "market" the game.

I have been a member of the Brumbies for 7 years now and have taken all of my kids from the moment that it was appropriate (My youngest was only 4 weeks when he attened his first game) and the brumbies support this by allowing kids under 4 entry for free. The fee for them now is very minimal that they are over four and if they are a member of a local club they get a free season pass. This is great for me and my family but anyone who has had no exposure to the game would not know of these opportunities.

I think most parents would make an effort to get their kids to games and to play if that is what they came home from school with an interst in.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Right Big Bum.

1. Nothing wrong with this provided
2. More work is done outside of private schools

1. Is looking after itself
2. Is disadvantaged by some the cream going to private schools but the trick is to grow the sport in that sector.

What we can't think is that it's not worth while doing the missionary work at 2. because 1. is going so well.

Oz rugby needs both 1. and 2. Let's attack the problem at 2. and not be concerned about the elitism of 1.

1. agree that 1 will look after itself despite ARU.
2. SJRU, BJRU, ACTJRU (and respective country equivalents) need ARU attention.

#2 is for another thread. Perhaps this one:

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/fo...-Report?p=197500&highlight=garling#post197500

or
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/fo...r-Australian-Rugby-Union/page6?highlight=J'On

 

[Jnor]

So, what are the issues here? Is the question: (1) Is it a good thing that rugby is mostly limited to a few private schools? or (2) Should the ARU do something about it?

I reckon it should be appropriate for the ARU to encourage slow growth outside the elite private schools. To give more opportunities for youngsters or school teachers interested in union to really make something of it. I went to a selective state school and we played rugby. We won the Buchan Shield (U15) then the Waratah Shield. It feels like CHS has gone backwards in the last 20 years, and I think that's a shame.

At the other end of the spectrum, I don't think there's any need to mass market the game to every single Australian. I don't mind that rugby is a little elitist. I like the fact that I can support kids like Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) and the rest as essentially good young men. I would quickly lose interest (as I did in Australian cricket) when I started thinking that the players were dickheads.

Hey! That's what I said!

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Speaking of St Gregs, what of nearby Hurlstone Ag High? It's the only Sydney based government boarding high school that I am aware of and had mates of my age and older who went there and played in schoolboy representative teams...Hurlstone was a rugby school powerhouse around 30 odd years ago...

Anyone know how has that school be faring recently rugbywise?

They have fallen away rather dramatically over the last 15 or so years.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Right Big Bum.

1. Nothing wrong with this provided
2. More work is done outside of private schools

1. Is looking after itself
2. Is disadvantaged by some the cream going to private schools but the trick is to grow the sport in that sector.

What we can't think is that it's not worth while doing the missionary work at 2. because 1. is going so well.

Oz rugby needs both 1. and 2. Let's attack the problem at 2. and not be concerned about the elitism of 1.

Exactly. Truth be told only a handful of schools produce the majority of RL talent, a very similar situation to Rugby's system. However, it would be prudent to look toward engaging more of No.2. The game will be stronger for it. Incentives should be made to encourage such a intiatives. The trick them would be to grow the club game afterwards.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

As a teacher in public primary schools, i feel that this should be our starting place. I am a Rugby die hard, yet this year took a senior group of boys as a team to the league gala day. The boys would have been very happy to go and play at a rugby day (quite a few play ra ra on the weekends) yet there is only representative teams for rugby. The local league development officer spent days in each local school, developed teams and then provide a number of gala days for the kids to play at. They put on food, invited former league players and made a real "carnival" type day of it. The kids had a great time.

The real clincher for me was that from this four of the boys that played in the gala days then signed up with a local junior league club to play on the weekends. That is 25% of the boys that I took decided that because of these days they would like to play league. That seems like a pretty good success rate to me.

I have recently just found out that the AFL development team in Canberra (where I am), with the introduction of GWS have done the same this year and have already set the dates for their carnivals for next year. If they also get 25% of the kids that play, we know at a junior level soccer accounts for over 40% of junior sport participation, it leaves a mere 10% of kids that will possibly take up RU. Now this does not seem like a very high success rate does it.

I attended public schools throughout primary and H.S. and have always played rugby (much to my Dad's disgust) but we cannot rely on private schools and the odd player coming from the public system anymore. If we want the sport to grow and expand (I know i do) then we need the infrastructure at the junior level to develop the players.

The younger we target them the better. I actually think 7s would be the perfect tool for this. You can get 3 or even 4 games of open Rugby. Run it in the sunner and invite the local clubs. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Lee Grant]

wal

Good posts

What the league development officer did is exactly the kind of thing union needs to be doing - amongst other things..

Carnivals - does that sound hard to do? It's the type of thing that we have to do at the village level but it needs the district senior club to drive it - or at least development officers from the state unions. Maybe that kind of thing happens in rugby union districts but I doubt if we do it as often as the league guys do and we would be streets behind our eventual biggest threat - Aussie Rules.

 

[RugbyFuture]

we have hardly enough development officers however.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The playing career of a professional rugby player is far too short.

The S15 contracted players should be rostered through the schools and school tournaments. They are on the payroll.

Their salaries are paid for indirectly by us, the punters who subscribe to foxtel, go to games, and buy merchandise.

Mungoballers (and Swans) attend schools in our local patch. This is typically organised by a grizzled old mungo has-been with dicky knees who the kids or parents would not know from a bar of soap. This is not an issue. Those on the mungoball payroll do what they are told. It is part of the job description.

Rugby need to follow this simple recipe, and integrate it with Village club initiatives. Many Schools would welcome an approach from ARU, as the mungoball image at certain times of the year is not one that the Education Department endorses. ARU seldom take advantage of this opportunity.

 

[Lindommer]

I believe the peeps at St Gregs are continually worried about the Marist Brothers from Joeys taking over the school and turning it into a rugby powerhouse.

Within the Marist family of schools only a few (the independent ones, Pearce, Hunters Hill and Ashgrove) play rugby, all the others play league. Gregs started to play rugby to give the boarders a meaningful game of something on Saturday mornings, prior to their involvement in the GPS as a fill-in/partner for High the boarders played whatever they could on weekends with local clubs. It was very unsatisfactory.

The problem for league schools is the depth of competition for weekend games: very few, if any, league schools can/could put more than two teams on the field in an age group. This is the cogent reason why St Greg's have introduced rugby, as it was for St Pat's Strathfield in 1965.