The Pulverisation of Australian Rugby

[Train Without a Station]

They would cease to exist as Rugby players.
You can't have a 20's rep team without a quality comp from which to recruit them from.
What happens to 21 yo's?
How many of these are in Soup squads?
where can they get good competition between School & gaining a pro contract?
I understand you are against subsidies to SS clubs,but the Rats president made a good point in the press yesterday that they account for 2,000 players including their village clubs.
It's more than just a First grade side in the SS.

But how much are they putting into these village clubs financially? Or is it flowing the other way?

 

[Dave Beat]

To act like SS is developing players that wouldn't exist is a joke. It previously played the part of intermediate development but over time with the NRC players will be in playing this new level earlier.

I'd like to think so, but some NRC teams were Super teams and provided very little development of there own clubs.

I read above that Dewar has 6 colts teams - and that is after how many years of the Rebels developing the code down there.

What changes have there been to the Dewar Shield since the inception of the Rebels in 2011?
I.e. how many clubs / grades per club / colts teams per club / U/18's per club / Juniors teams per club - I ask this because I do not know and would like to know.

 

[Quick Hands]

But how much are they putting into these village clubs financially? Or is it flowing the other way?

In the Manly experience there is a small flow down to the village clubs, there's no flow of cash the other way.

 

[Dave Beat]

But how much are they putting into these village clubs financially? Or is it flowing the other way?

Look at the bigger picture, coin doesn't have to be handed over as a form of support - awareness, players at training, community involvement, it all forms part of a "CLUB". Money can cheapen relationships - you have sniped from behind a keyboard without providing any constructive solutions.

Whether it be the 2 Blues, whether it be the Rats, or the Marlins - there is work and interaction through the juniors to develop and strengthen "Australian Rugby". I refer to Australian Rugby - for the love of the game, and not as a monetorial value when you reference "put into village clubs financially".

What has the Rebels put into clubs apart from players from NSW & QLD premier clubs, maybe they need to put some "Australian Rugby" time / love / passion into grass roots rather than having the view about everything financial.

Yeah, so when we have mini sign up day early in the year (Feb) and there are half a dozen Marlins at the local shops talking to mums / dads / kids - yeah that is a great contribution to Australian Rugby - and if that results in 6 new signings, and one new Wallaby great work. Do the players have to be there, is any one paying them, no - have a think about it...............



TWAS - ask your self, have i (that is you) ever provided contributions or ideas that may develop VRU without the support, or interaction in any way at all of players / management that have come from another state.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^Thank's for reminding me DB, I did leave out the appearance of grade players at village club training and that the SS home games provide interaction between the local juniors and senior players.

I think the ARU should be providing support for clubs in Melbourne and Perth as well.

But what I'm really after is the vision as to how Australian rugby works and is funded from Wallabies to 6s. It all just seems so ad hoc at the moment - we add something here and take something away there with little thought as to how it all functions within the whole.

 

[Train Without a Station]

My view is a little different as I came from a subbies club on the Gold Coast. The breakers in my case provided absolutely zero to these clubs? Beyond something like a rep club to strive for.

I'm sure in this case they would be claiming all us clubs as village clubs. But they're providing fuck all.

In Melbourne the clubs are fully self funded from what I can see. The VRU makes the rebels players and staff available where they can to assist whenever asked though.

Back when Matt Tink was coaching, when available he was happy to provide scrum coaching. John muggleton came down and provided a couple of defence sessions.

Yet these clubs are profitable, some pay players, MU for example has a full time GM funded between the club and the uni jointly and a "future" find of over $300,000 which grows annually. Harlequins and Melbourne would likely be in better financial positions as they allegedly pay their players.

My point is that the well run clubs in Melbourne haven't needed ARU hand outs, the Rebels run a great deal of junior carnivals so that the number of interstate sourced players in the VRU drops annually, and from what I've seen, Premier Clubs haven't been putting a lot back into suburban clubs.

 

[Quick Hands]

My view is a little different as I came from a subbies club on the Gold Coast. The breakers in my case provided absolutely zero to these clubs? Beyond something like a rep club to strive for.

I'm sure in this case they would be claiming all us clubs as village clubs. But they're providing fuck all.

In Melbourne the clubs are fully self funded from what I can see. The VRU makes the rebels players and staff available where they can to assist whenever asked though.

Back when Matt Tink was coaching, when available he was happy to provide scrum coaching. John muggleton came down and provided a couple of defence sessions.

Yet these clubs are profitable, some pay players, MU for example has a full time GM funded between the club and the uni jointly and a "future" find of over $300,000 which grows annually. Harlequins and Melbourne would likely be in better financial positions as they allegedly pay their players.

My point is that the well run clubs in Melbourne haven't needed ARU hand outs, the Rebels run a great deal of junior carnivals so that the number of interstate sourced players in the VRU drops annually, and from what I've seen, Premier Clubs haven't been putting a lot back into suburban clubs.

I'm genuinely glad to hear that at least the clubs you mention are profitable and there seems to be growth in rugby generally in Melbourne.

Your Gold Coast experience would be true in Sydney in terms of subbies clubs, who would receive nothing from an SS club.

In terms of Manly, the SS club h set up a junior academy about 10 years ago to promote junior development and as a club we are one of the 2 out of 12 in Sydney who aren't in the red and we also have a foundation.

My biggest gripe with the latest ARU announcement is that it is just a straight out cost cutting measure - nothing to do with improving grass roots or even changing the funding model.

 

[I like to watch]

All good points.
But let's remember that uncle Bill has imposed a double whammy on the SS clubs.
Not only is he withdrawing grants to them,he has added expenses to each of the clubs in the form of an NRC team that they need to fund.

My biggest gripe is he says one thing and does another.
ARU supporting grass roots?
Now he takes $200 for the privilege of fielding a team.
Want to be an elite junior?
No problem,give us $600 to participate in a summer program.
Want to participate in Oz Schools champs?
No worries,if you are selected its just another$600.
Imagine if he wasn't trying to promote the game at junior level....

 

[Dave Beat]

My view is a little different as I came from a subbies club on the Gold Coast. The breakers in my case provided absolutely zero to these clubs? Beyond something like a rep club to strive for.
I'm sure in this case they would be claiming all us clubs as village clubs. But they're providing fuck all.

Enjoyment, good mates, beers, and great memories - if you've lost that, or cant see it - it is sad.

In Melbourne the clubs are fully self funded from what I can see. The VRU makes the rebels players and staff available where they can to assist whenever asked though.

So Dewar clubs are 100% self funded - interesting.

Back when Matt Tink was coaching, when available he was happy to provide scrum coaching. John Muggleton came down and provided a couple of defence sessions.

Good to see Matt got a job in rugby after playing with West Harbor up in Sydney.

My point is that the well run clubs in Melbourne haven't needed ARU hand outs,

So no ARU hand outs, or pass ARU downs from the Rebels - you 100% sure of that.


But i must say - if Dewar clubs are running profitably and the balance sheet is in the black well done, that is what we want to see.


Have you had a moment to look into;
What changes have there been to the Dewar Shield since the inception of the Rebels in 2011?
I.e. how many clubs / grades per club / colts teams per club / U/18's per club / Juniors teams per club - I ask this because I do not know and would like to know.

 

[TOCC]

All good points.
But let's remember that uncle Bill has imposed a double whammy on the SS clubs.
Not only is he withdrawing grants to them,he has added expenses to each of the clubs in the form of an NRC team that they need to fund.
.

The NRC teams are joint ventures, they weren't forced into those ventures so if they feel like it's a grievance forced upon them, then they should piss off and go back to focussing on the club rugby.

Stakeholders from the Shute Shield were a big reason the original ARC was shitcanned, and il be dammed if they do that again just because they feel like the competition is shortchanging them. .

I find it incredible that Shute Shield players are paid to start with, if a club is spending beyond its means because of player costs then they need to take a long hard look at themselves and reassess their fiscal situation. The ARU should never have been used to plug the hole created by spending on players wages at club level.

 

[It is what it is]

The NRC teams are joint ventures, they weren't forced into those ventures so if they feel like it's a grievance forced upon them, then they should piss off and go back to focussing on the club rugby.

Stakeholders from the Shute Shield were a big reason the original ARC was shitcanned, and il be dammed if they do that again just because they feel like the competition is shortchanging them. .

I find it incredible that Shute Shield players are paid to start with, if a club is spending beyond its means because of player costs then they need to take a long hard look at themselves and reassess their fiscal situation. The ARU should never have been used to plug the hole created by spending on players wages at club level.

Can we at least acknowledge that clubs do add value to Australian Rugby and it costs money to be able to do that?
Forget payments for players for a moment.
The laundry, ground hire, and strapping bill just about wipes out the $30K they were receiving from the ARU.
Clubs need administrators, coaches, trainers, doctors, physics etc who are professional. God bless the volunteers but if all positions were held by volunteers, only the independently wealthy could put in the hours required.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

God bless the volunteers but if all positions were held by volunteers, only the independently wealthy could put in the hours required.

And the century + of volunteers is the capital on which the ARU survives and by which it exists

 

[Quick Hands]

Can we at least acknowledge that clubs do add value to Australian Rugby and it costs money to be able to do that?
Forget payments for players for a moment.
The laundry, ground hire, and strapping bill just about wipes out the $30K they were receiving from the ARU.
Clubs need administrators, coaches, trainers, doctors, physics etc who are professional. God bless the volunteers but if all positions were held by volunteers, only the independently wealthy could put in the hours required.

It's actually quite sad that people can't see that a strong club competition, whether it's in Sydney, Brisbane, Canberra, Melbourne, Perth or anywhere else for that matter is good for rugby. The stronger each of these competitions are the better for the next level up and the next level down. The idea that weakening any particular part of the rugby pyramid will not have an effect all the way to the top (and bottom) is illogical.

I suspect that there is some joy in this decision as it inflicts a bit of pain and punishment on those evil Sydney clubs. For some it's probably a way to stick the knife into those evil Waratahs as well.

The number of people who have taken the view that NRC and club rugby is an either/or choice is quite bizarre. The should actually complement each other, as should each level of the game.

No administration in its right mind would discard the value of all of these club competitions (yes all of them, not just the Sydney one) and place all its eggs in the NRC basket.

 

[It is what it is]

I thought they were meant to complement each other too.
Isn't that why a 'master rugby calendar' was developed?

 

[Quick Hands]

Stakeholders from the Shute Shield were a big reason the original ARC was shitcanned,

No, the way the ARU and the NSWRU implemented it was a big reason why it was shitcanned.

 

[Quick Hands]

Interesting that on the match threads people are bemoaning a lack of depth, while on this thread people are joyfully anticipating the decline of club competitions.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Nobody is saying a strong club competition isn't good.

But from what I've been told, some subbies clubs are doing better than SS clubs.

Without SS players will not disappear. Market forces would dictate that subbies div 1 would become the equivalent as it's not the teams that make it, it's the coaches, staff and players.

QH your post #356 pretty much typifies the SS club attitude that they are the centre of the universe.

Without SS there is an abundance of rugby teams to play for, so player numbers should not necessarily shrink.

One could argue strengthening of subbies would be better for the game. But that's a huge unknown. I'm merely saying it's not definitely worse.

 

[It is what it is]

Nobody is saying a strong club competition isn't good.

But from what I've been told, some subbies clubs are doing better than SS clubs.

Without SS players will not disappear. Market forces would dictate that subbies div 1 would become the equivalent as it's not the teams that make it, it's the coaches, staff and players.

QH your post #356 pretty much typifies the SS club attitude that they are the centre of the universe.

Without SS there is an abundance of rugby teams to play for, so player numbers should not necessarily shrink.

One could argue strengthening of subbies would be better for the game. But that's a huge unknown. I'm merely saying it's not definitely worse.

Let's agree that 'something meaningful' needs to happen at club level below or in and around the NRC.
The best solution would be to have promotion and relegation between the levels right through.

 

[Dave Beat]

But from what I've been told, some subbies clubs are doing better than SS clubs.

Promotion / Relegation maybe the way then, not sure - may bring about some amalgamations like Port Hacking & St George = Southern Districts.

One could argue strengthening of subbies would be better for the game. But that's a huge unknown. I'm merely saying it's not definitely worse.

You clearly aren't local - Kentwall is miles behind player wise, depth wise, and administration wise. Maybe Dewar can join the Kentwall cup.

Without SS there is an abundance of rugby teams to play for, so player numbers should not necessarily shrink.

You kidding, you have to be kidding - go and have a read of the player exodus thread. Yes you are right abundance of rugby teams but lets keep our players on our own shore - but you still have not answered the below, how about being constructive.

Have you had a moment to look into;
What changes have there been to the Dewar Shield since the inception of the Rebels in 2011?
I.e. how many clubs / grades per club / colts teams per club / U/18's per club / Juniors teams per club - I ask this because I do not know and would like to know.


TWAS - ask your self, have i (that is you) ever provided contributions or ideas that may develop VRU without the support, or interaction in any way at all of players / management that have come from another state.

Train Without a Station said: ↑

In Melbourne the clubs are fully self funded from what I can see. The VRU makes the rebels players and staff available where they can to assist whenever asked though.​

So Dewar clubs are 100% self funded???? - interesting.

 

[Quick Hands]

QH your post #356 pretty much typifies the SS club attitude that they are the centre of the universe.

Note the 's' in post #356 - club competitions - all of them.

SS is the one which exists in Sydney and it fulfils an important role. Rugby in this state anyway would be poorer for its demise.