The Pulverisation of Australian Rugby

[Train Without a Station]

Dave you are so entrenched in your views that you can't see the Forrest through the trees. To you there is no possible way there can be strong rugby without SS in it's current state.

Kentwell Cup is so far behind? Obviously as the most talented players generally play SS.

With no SS where would these players play? Bingo. Kentwell Cup. And all of a sudden it's stronger.

What's this about players going offshore? So SS rugby is what's keeping them here and if they had to play in a stronger Kentwell Cup because there is no SS they would leave? I doubt that very much.

I'm not advocating Kentwell Cup overtaking the SS. But I'm am saying SS hasn't shown what it's doing deserves to be subsidised, and subsidised more than all other club competitions in Australia.

Don't tell me the clubs are doing all these things altruistically for the good of rugby as a whole. They doing them for the good of their club as a whole. Given the opportunity to be the top of the tree being able to be shown on game of the round on abc and market themselves as playing in the top competition I'm sure plenty of the Kentwell Cup clubs would jump at the opportunity.

 

[Dave Beat]

Dave you are so entrenched in your views that you can't see the Forrest through the trees. To you there is no possible way there can be strong rugby without SS in it's current state.

No need to repeat what you have said, as you are clearly not reading what is being posted - and still not looking at growth and ideas, rather than detract from the Shute Shield - the very comp that has assisted the Rebels get off and running. I have referenced "Club" in a number of my posts please read.

I said Club because there is more than one club comp in Aust, and i do not have the knowledge of how each club or comp has been supported, or if they have been supported at all.

So I wake today and read in the Telegraph that the ARU is ceasing its support of Australian Rugby - not supporting club rugby (what i read referenced the Shute Shield).

Note - I understand the media can often twist stories or provide just one side, but:

So stop feeding your kids and watch them grow and develop.

It is these very clubs that all Wallabies have an association with in some capacity.

It is these very clubs that kicked the can to get the NRC up and running, whilst one state NRC teams had the support of a Super 15 structure.

It is these very clubs that should be supported because they are the ones doing it for love and developing the grass roots in their community so rugby grows stronger.

• Start of the year they charge grass root clubs extra per team.
• Now they decide to limit / stop contributions to the grass roots.

I started this thread because there was a huge gap between the ARU, and the punters that spend time on forums such at this because they love the game (Australian Rugby).


Example of this is in this mornings tele.

REALLY

Lost me a little - my eyes and we can all see thing differently no issues, we seem to have allot of "RU's" at the moment in - different topic, are they all needed?

I made reference to the ARU -

• I sat on the fence with the $200 (from memory) per team for all grass roots clubs, used wisely and reinvested it could have been good for the grass roots.
• ARU - this mornings article, I would still like to know and understand more, hence i didn't unleash. But seriously it is club rugby that kids build through, then onto the Shute Shield, and then onto possibly higher honors.

As i said, I'd like to hear / understand more - to stop feeding growth, what happens?????

Can the Wallabies grow.
Can the Waratahs grow.
But for fuck sake club rugby can grow, whether it be a new subbies team, whether it be Penrith 3rd grade colts team, or even Allambie Jets mini rugby - they can all grow enormously.

So yeah i am entrenched in my ideas that we need to grow and develop, and I've shared my ideas how - IMO. Those / These ideas can be applied to any state - as it starts at grass roots (minis through to Premier).

TWAS - what have you shared.

 

[Quick Hands]

Dave you are so entrenched in your views that you can't see the Forrest through the trees. To you there is no possible way there can be strong rugby without SS in it's current state.

Kentwell Cup is so far behind? Obviously as the most talented players generally play SS.

With no SS where would these players play? Bingo. Kentwell Cup. And all of a sudden it's stronger.

What's this about players going offshore? So SS rugby is what's keeping them here and if they had to play in a stronger Kentwell Cup because there is no SS they would leave? I doubt that very much.

I'm not advocating Kentwell Cup overtaking the SS. But I'm am saying SS hasn't shown what it's doing deserves to be subsidised, and subsidised more than all other club competitions in Australia.

Don't tell me the clubs are doing all these things altruistically for the good of rugby as a whole. They doing them for the good of their club as a whole. Given the opportunity to be the top of the tree being able to be shown on game of the round on abc and market themselves as playing in the top competition I'm sure plenty of the Kentwell Cup clubs would jump at the opportunity.

Gee, your antipathy towards SS runs deep.

I've been involved in an SS club and also in 2 subbies clubs and they are miles behind. There's no way they can step up to SS level for a number of reasons; the principal one being the very make-up geographically and demographically of the Kentwell Cup Clubs:
3 are private school old boys teams - St Pat's Strathfield, Old Ignatians (Riverview) and Knox O.B.
2 are junior feeder clubs for existing SS teams - Mosman (Norths) and Beecroft (Eastwood)
The others:
Drummoyne previously contested SS but they could no longer compete so dropped out/were replaced by Penrith. Is located in the inner west, which is already served by Uni and Wests in SS.
Balmain Is located in the inner west, which is already served by Uni and Wests in SS.
Petersham Is located in the inner west, which is already served by Uni and Wests in SS.
Colleagues. Located in Woollahra in the Eastern Suburbs, where the current SS team of that name already plays.
Cambelltown - have dropped out of Kentwell Cup for 2015 as they struggled to be competitive and have linked up with the Illawarra Country zone.

As it currently stands, what players at SS clubs get is more resources and better coaching and play in a more structured environment. Players in the 12 district clubs are developed by not only that, but by the standard of competition that they are in. If the standard of competition drops and they are spread far and wide to subbies, they won't have the same level or intensity of development.

Subbies is a really good environment for the guys who don't want that intense playing and training. I loved my time playing subbies, just as I loved my time at Manly. It is not meant as a criticism of subbies to say that SS or Brisbane Premier is better, it's just how it is.

 

[Muglair]

This thread has gone off topic.

The ARU has been bragging about how it didn't fund the NRC. Now it is cutting funding further down. Some clubs like Randwick and Easts are not involved because they could not commit the funding towards the NRC on top of their own expenses participating in SS etc. The withdrawal from the development of the game by the ARU is almost complete while at the same time levying clubs to prop up the ARU.

I thought that this was the Pulverisation of the ARU.

Letting SS clubs go broke or implementing promotion and relegation as a superior way of developing the game should be a different thread. Both ideas are of course absolutely insane and could only be promoted by those intent on dragging down the development of players.

I played when promotion and relegation was in full swing and it only served to weaken all of the clubs in that zone. It barely works in English soccer and the whole financial dynamics and player development issues in English soccer are in a different solar system to Australian rugby.

Subbies and SS are worlds apart with largely different cultures and objectives. There are some very talented players in subbies but they choose to play there because they have no ambitions to play at a higher level.

It would be interesting to see an analysis of where all of the contracted Super 15 players came from eg overseas, straight from private school, straight from public schools, from Brisbane comp, from Sydney comp, etc.

That would give a better idea where development is actually happening.

 

[Dave Beat]

This thread has gone off topic.

The ARU has been bragging about how it didn't fund the NRC. Now it is cutting funding further down. Some clubs like Randwick and Easts are not involved because they could not commit the funding towards the NRC on top of their own expenses participating in SS etc. The withdrawal from the development of the game by the ARU is almost complete while at the same time levying clubs to prop up the ARU.

I thought that this was the Pulverisation of the ARU.

Letting SS clubs go broke or implementing promotion and relegation as a superior way of developing the game should be a different thread. Both ideas are of course absolutely insane and could only be promoted by those intent on dragging down the development of players.

I played when promotion and relegation was in full swing and it only served to weaken all of the clubs in that zone. It barely works in English soccer and the whole financial dynamics and player development issues in English soccer are in a different solar system to Australian rugby.

Subbies and SS are worlds apart with largely different cultures and objectives. There are some very talented players in subbies but they choose to play there because they have no ambitions to play at a higher level.

It would be interesting to see an analysis of where all of the contracted Super 15 players came from eg overseas, straight from private school, straight from public schools, from Brisbane comp, from Sydney comp, etc.

That would give a better idea where development is actually happening.

Yup, even across a couple of bridges there is some sensible think - agreed.

And also the area that needs to be fed so it can continue the work.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The ARU has been bragging about how it didn't fund the NRC. Now it is cutting funding further down. Some clubs like Randwick and Easts are not involved because they could not commit the funding towards the NRC on top of their own expenses participating in SS etc. The withdrawal from the development of the game by the ARU is almost complete while at the same time levying clubs to prop up the ARU.

I may be missing the point but Easts and Randwick did participate in NRC, through the Country Eagles who were coached by Darren Coleman who is the Easts club coach for 2015.
The 10 who caught a lot of people's eye, Windsor, finished season 2014 playing for Easts.

 

[Quick Hands]

I'm still waiting for someone to annunciate the Hawker/Pulver vision for Australian rugby.

How do the different levels of the game relate? How can we ensure that they complement each other so that we are all working for the one goal? Is the junior structure right? How can the different layers of junior rugby be brought into some cohesion (JGC, Zone, Sydney, Country, Districts & village)?

How is it all to be funded?

From what I can make out at the moment it's all just ad hoc decision making based on crisis management, cost cutting and PR spin. I don't think the board or the CEO appreciate what's going on and thus have no real idea how to fix it.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I'm still waiting for someone to annunciate the Hawker/Pulver vision for Australian rugby.

How do the different levels of the game relate? How can we ensure that they complement each other so that we are all working for the one goal? Is the junior structure right? How can the different layers of junior rugby be brought into some cohesion (JGC, Zone, Sydney, Country, Districts & village)?

How is it all to be funded?

From what I can make out at the moment it's all just ad hoc decision making based on crisis management, cost cutting and PR spin. I don't think the board or the CEO appreciate what's going on and thus have no real idea how to fix it.

To be fair Quick Hands, the ARU reportedly could have been insolvent by next year - that's a fair old crisis to be managed. Pulver's main focus had to be on the broadcast deal which is now done, and it sounds like a relative success, which will ensure that the ARU at least exists from 2016 onwards.

That gives everyone a bit of breathing space to work through some of the other governance changes (eg the Arbib review) and other strategic initiatives

 

[Man on the hill]

IMO (only mine) i think it would be more economical if the ARU supported Shute Shield clubs develop their community grass root clubs. It would be different for VIC / WA / ACT.

The shame is they just don't support their local juniors - maybe a few hundred $$ and lending them their name etc for state championships. In the most part, juniors operate autonomously & are dependant upon their own resources to fund their activities.

NSWRU have for many years tried to work with the premiership clubs to reduce the scope of their competitions and the greedy, all knowing clubs have persisted with a business model that is just not sustainable and now want to be considered the grass roots of the game.

Make me laugh!

 

[Quick Hands]

To be fair Quick Hands, the ARU reportedly could have been insolvent by next year - that's a fair old crisis to be managed. Pulver's main focus had to be on the broadcast deal which is now done, and it sounds like a relative success, which will ensure that the ARU at least exists from 2016 onwards.

That gives everyone a bit of breathing space to work through some of the other governance changes (eg the Arbib review) and other strategic initiatives

I certainly hope so, but we wait. You can still work on the plan while your doing something else. How much money you allocate and to who can be finalised when the dollars come through.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The shame is they just don't support their local juniors - maybe a few hundred $$ and lending them their name etc for state championships. In the most part, juniors operate autonomously & are dependant upon their own resources to fund their activities.

NSWRU have for many years tried to work with the premiership clubs to reduce the scope of their competitions and the greedy, all knowing clubs have persisted with a business model that is just not sustainable and now want to be considered the grass roots of the game.

Make me laugh!

In what way greedy?
The senior clubs I have been involved in have all taken an interest in their juniors. The may not be perfect I accept.
Your mention of a "business model" is troubling: what business is it that survives on sponsorships cajoled from real businesses?
The Shute Shield is no more than a break even proposition to provide an opportunity to blokes (and increasingly women) who want to play serious rugby with serious commitment.
I have never considered any of the clubs to be a business (and wonder if those more recently connected with them have ever thought of them that way) - they are community organisations. They built the game in this country and the ARU "runs" it - apparently for its own purposes.

 

[Dave Beat]

The shame is they just don't support their local juniors - maybe a few hundred $$ and lending them their name etc for state championships. In the most part, juniors operate autonomously & are dependant upon their own resources to fund their activities.

NSWRU have for many years tried to work with the premiership clubs to reduce the scope of their competitions and the greedy, all knowing clubs have persisted with a business model that is just not sustainable and now want to be considered the grass roots of the game.

Make me laugh!

Every club is different, and forms of support also differ, turning up to rego days, turning up to training, juniors days, ladies day, ooops and also uni scholarships to (in good humour dont jump).

 

[Man on the hill]

In what way greedy?
The senior clubs I have been involved in have all taken an interest in their juniors. The may not be perfect I accept.

OK - great denial - but lets not argue about a river in Egypt.

Q1 - as a beasts supporter - how many junior teams go to state champs from?
Q2 - how much $$ support was provided.
Q3 - how much of the ARU development grant ever filtered its way to the Juniors? (Support in kind.

As to professionally run businesses without a business plan or model - ZERO. Even not for profit organisations like charities are professionally run on handouts & sponsorship - they all have a business plan and a business model.

Being old school is not an excuse for SS clubs to ignore basic business principals or to ignore their true local roots.

 

[Dave Beat]

OK - great denial - but lets not argue about a river in Egypt.

Q1 - as a beasts supporter - how many junior teams go to state champs from?
Q2 - how much $$ support was provided.
Q3 - how much of the ARU development grant ever filtered its way to the Juniors? (Support in kind.

And how much is the person paid to flip the sausages,
And how much is the guy paid to stand on the gate,
And how much is the second grade coach paid,

Seriously, does it need to relate to a $ figure? - what did this cost';

Guessing under 7's but guess what in 15 years time he could be something - because someone gave him time.

Sorry took it off topic, whether it be clubs who really spend time on developing their juniors, or a corporation like Uni - something different is brought and the level has risen for the better over recent years.

 

[Highlander35]

Clubs all around the World are implicitly Greedy and self interested. I don't hold it against them, it comes with the territory. It would be like hating Sharks or Snakes. An irrational and emotional response to something acting completely within its nature.

But this behaviour does need to be accounted for and considered when it comes to dealing with them. The bigger and more historically successful clubs even more so.

 

[formerflanker]

The NRC teams are joint ventures, they weren't forced into those ventures so if they feel like it's a grievance forced upon them, then they should piss off and go back to focussing on the club rugby.

Stakeholders from the Shute Shield were a big reason the original ARC was shitcanned, and il be dammed if they do that again just because they feel like the competition is shortchanging them. .

I find it incredible that Shute Shield players are paid to start with, if a club is spending beyond its means because of player costs then they need to take a long hard look at themselves and reassess their fiscal situation. The ARU should never have been used to plug the hole created by spending on players wages at club level.

Yes, but.........the players are seeking payment. Most clubs are paying to recruit and retain talented players. Even school leavers entering Colts in Sydney are known to have agents seeking paid gigs at the SS clubs.
I believe The Corporation's success in luring players led to many other clubs trying to match that success by increasing player payments.
It's a fact of life in 2014 that players know they can negotiate for payments. Full amateur status for Shute Shield clubs will never be seen again.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

OK - great denial - but lets not argue about a river in Egypt.

Q1 - as a beasts supporter - how many junior teams go to state champs from?
Q2 - how much $$ support was provided.
Q3 - how much of the ARU development grant ever filtered its way to the Juniors? (Support in kind.

As to professionally run businesses without a business plan or model - ZERO. Even not for profit organisations like charities are professionally run on handouts & sponsorship - they all have a business plan and a business model.

Being old school is not an excuse for SS clubs to ignore basic business principals or to ignore their true local roots.

.
The juniors at Easts are fine until all the kids go to their various private schools.
No doubt you have the answer to that issue too
“The figures that 64 per cent of national players emerge out of the Shute Shield or Brisbane comp,” Begg said. (Quoted in the "continued decline of juniors thread")

 

[TOCC]

It's evident people in here are passionate about the topic and set in their views, this debate could continue for ever.....

 

[Inside Shoulder]

As a matter of interest what is it contended that the Shute Shield/Premier rugby clubs "waste" their ARU money on?
Remembering always that flying Beale to England as a supernumerary comes to about half a season's "grant" for a whole club, who will produce S15 and Wallaby players.

 

[Train Without a Station]

No it doesn't. They are sponsored by an airline for starters.