The Official Australian 7s Thread

[RugbyReg]

Benny Lucas was awesome at last year's Adelaide 7s I thought. Fantastic footwork.

I still think 7s should be used almost as a stepping stone for schoolboys. Use it as a way of securing some of the schoolboy stars (there are specialist ARU 7s contracts right?) and just play them. The likes of Jake Schatz, Aiden Toua, Talalelei Gray, Kotoni Ale, Justin Turner, Dorn Shipperley, etc etc. Touring the world, learning how to beat a man, tackle one on one, support play, and then move them on to club footy and then the pro ranks. Inject the odd S14 talent when you can (Matt Hodgson etc) to show them the work ethic.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Benny Lucas was awesome at last year's Adelaide 7s I thought. Fantastic footwork.
I still think 7s should be used almost as a stepping stone for schoolboys. Use it as a way of securing some of the schoolboy stars (there are specialist ARU 7s contracts right?) and just play them. The likes of Jake Schatz, Aiden Toua, Talalelei Gray, Kotoni Ale, Justin Turner, Dorn Shipperley, etc etc. Touring the world, learning how to beat a man, tackle one on one, support play, and then move them on to club footy and then the pro ranks. Inject the odd S14 talent when you can (Matt Hodgson etc) to show them the work ethic.

Good point Noddy. Up until recent years though we have been using old workhorses in the 7's and it is a different game.
The 7's are so similar to schoolboy rugby and I am all for getting some of the loosies and speedsters from the previous schools team into the 7's. It would be a wonderful grounding for them.

 

[Cutter]

7s caps would also make them ineligible for other countries.

 

[TOCC]

i would personally like to see some 7's tournaments run in Australia with club players and S14 players all involved, and from that they select that form players for the Australian 7's side.

yeah its a good development pathway for schoolboys, but i would like to see Australia go better on the 7's tournment. I tend to think 7's is rather untapped in the marketing potential in Australia, similar to 20-20 cricket.

ive also thought that the ARU should attempt to run a 7's tournament with the S14 sides and invite the NRL teams, im sure the broadcasting rights for that would be quite valuable and would make it attractive to any club out there.

 

[RugbyReg]

TOCC, agreed. How about a club based 7s comp in Oct or so (a selection trial) so S14 players but not Wallabies?

 

[rugbywhisperer]

I have for years thought a schools 7's comp would be a great spectacle. Would love to see a GPS one for starters and grow from there.

 

[RugbyReg]

RW, I played at one (and won it) at St Lawries (I was Terrace) almost 2 decades ago.

So there is a 7s RWC in March next year. I wonder if we will treat it like the Com games and play some stars?

 

[rugbywhisperer]

I honestly don't think the ARU treat the 7's the way it needs to be treated. It's a different game to 15 a side and requires in all probability differnt players. Leave the stars to the 15 a side and put in players capable of winning at 7's.

 

[fatprop]

Listening to McKensie he said that sevens can also limit a young players development.

The body shape required for sevens is lighter and leaner and most of our kids need programs to build core strength and increase their weight

 

[Cutter]

Listening to McKensie he said that sevens can also limit a young players development.

The body shape required for sevens is lighter and leaner and most of our kids need programs to build core strength and increase their weight

Maybe so, but it hasnt hurt a host of ABs that cut their teeth in 7s including Lomu, Rokocoko, Howlett etc.

 

[fatprop]

Listening to McKensie he said that sevens can also limit a young players development.

The body shape required for sevens is lighter and leaner and most of our kids need programs to build core strength and increase their weight

Maybe so, but it hasnt hurt a host of ABs that cut their teeth in 7s including Lomu, Rokocoko, Howlett etc.

Yes and no, the NZ side have the depth to let them play a few years.

We stick 17yros in S14 games

 

[Lee Grant]

Yes and no, the NZ side have the depth to let them play a few years.

We stick 17yros in S14 games

Exactly right and I have been appalled by it. Because of the lack of depth in Oz rugby, which has not been helped by the demise of the ARC, they recruit schoolboy players and chuck them into professional rugby a few weeks after they leave school.

I don't mind so much that they have to learn their trade on the job - it's the physical risk to them that concerns me.

At least the league coaches usually give the rugby union youngsters they poach a year or two of physical development before they do that, and in the meantime they play against players of about the same age. More or less. They are protecting their investment and incidentally protecting youngsters from physical harm.

On the other hand their rugby union equivalents chuck them on the park from the bench against seasoned, professional hard guys - sometimes in the nature of an experiement to see if they are physically ready to have longer stints later.

That would scare me as the parent of a teenage player.

 

[TOCC]

Yes and no, the NZ side have the depth to let them play a few years.

We stick 17yros in S14 games

Exactly right and I have been appalled by it. Because of the lack of depth in Oz rugby, which has not been helped by the demise of the ARC, they recruit schoolboy players and chuck them into professional rugby a few weeks after they leave school.

I don't mind so much that they have to learn their trade on the job - it's the physical risk to them that concerns me.

At least the league coaches usually give the rugby union youngsters they poach a year or two of physical development before they do that, and in the meantime they play against players of about the same age. More or less. They are protecting their investment and incidentally protecting youngsters from physical harm.

On the other hand their rugby union equivalents chuck them on the park from the bench against seasoned, professional hard guys - sometimes in the nature of an experiement to see if they are physically ready to have longer stints later.

That would scare me as the parent of a teenage player.

that not correct, the NRL has had there fair share of young players over the last few years as well, the 17 year olds to debut in the last few years:
Karmichael Hunt
Chris Lawrence(was still at school)
Mitchell Pearce
Cooper Vuna
Israel Folau
Jamal Idris

many of those players are bigger then JOC (James O'Connor), but people like Mitchell Pearce and Chris Lawrence are a similar size to JOC (James O'Connor)..

JOC (James O'Connor) is a excellent talent and yeah he has played a few games now, nearly all of them have being off the bench, and he has being shielded quite well..

 

[Lee Grant]

I said "More or less" knowing of those players and to forestall objections such as yours.

I also said "More or less" knowing that young league players of 17-18 are about 2 years physically advanced on equivalent rugby union players. Some union players leave school having had very little gym work whereas many of the league boys start at 15.

My message is that the league guys have their young folks more physically prepared at the same age. Any teenager who has to play in the NRL is better physically prepared than just about any union teenager, and especially just after they leave school.

More or less - there are always exceptions such as David Pocock and before him Phil Waugh who were hard players when they walked out of the school gates at Churchie and Shore.

Don't tell me about the talent of the Rabbit - I spotted him when he was 15. I just fear one day that a young chap is going to be hurt because a union coach is going to chuck him on the park before his physical preparation is complete, because the coach is in trouble.

I hope I never have to say: "I told you so."

 

[rugbywhisperer]

I am with you all the way there Lee.
I was speaking to an exBris club pres on Sunday and they all have the same concerns and the rugby heirachy don't have the balls to say 'leave' alone for a few years. They are so paranoid that some other group will come along and poach their young star.
I fear for Rabbit and the way he was rushed just to secure him in Aussie colours. And I believe rushed. He is good but not so good right now that there was no one else in Aussie rugby that could have been in that position for the tour.

 

[TOCC]

I said "More or less" knowing of those players and to forestall objections such as yours.

I also said "More or less" knowing that young league players of 17-18 are about 2 years physically advanced on equivalent rugby union players. Some union players leave school having had very little gym work whereas many of the league boys start at 15.

My message is that the league guys have their young folks more physically prepared at the same age. Any teenager who has to play in the NRL is better physically prepared than just about any union teenager, and especially just after they leave school.

More or less - there are always exceptions such as David Pocock and before him Phil Waugh who were hard players when they walked out of the school gates at Churchie and Shore.

Don't tell me about the talent of the Rabbit - I spotted him when he was 15. I just fear one day that a young chap is going to be hurt because a union coach is going to chuck him on the park before his physical preparation is complete, because the coach is in trouble.

I hope I never have to say: "I told you so."

haha, you cant write a big long statement slamming rugby union for being behind in the development of teenagers in comparison to the NRL, and then chuck a disclaimer on it to cover yourself when your either proven incorrect or provide no evidence to support it.

Using your argument, rugby union more or less does the same as the NRL..
The only player i can think of in recent history who has debutd at a age and level of physical development which would appear premature to what is needed for there position at professional level, is James O'Connor.

Im interested in your argument about league players being 2 years more developed, i have seen nothing to support this case. This probably has more to do with the NRL's larger focus on polynesian players, Afusipa Taumoepeau is a example of this, a rugby union player who debut'd at 18 and was definetly large enough.

Im very happy of your talent spotting of JOC (James O'Connor), you should be very proud of yourself.

 

[Lee Grant]

Im interested in your argument about league players being 2 years more developed, i have seen nothing to support this case. This probably has more to do with the NRL's larger focus on polynesian players, Afusipa Taumoepeau is a example of this, a rugby union player who debut'd at 18 and was definetly large enough.

You have seen nothing to support my argument because you haven't seen enough.

I'll give you an example.

In recent years Joeys 2nds have played against St. Gregorys a couple of times - or maybe one year it was the 3rds. IIRR St.Gregs took the place of High who didn't field a team at those levels.

The Gregs boys were boarders of a rugby league school and quite a few were in their 1st XIII league team - or whatever they call it. They ran on and looked like muscular young men. Many of them had had gym work at their local league club as a school activity, according to what a Gregs master told me. They looked like they were 19 or 20.

Then the Joeys boys ran on and they looked like, well, schoolboys. This can be confirmed by anybody who watches Joeys games, such as Lindommer.

They bashed the Joeys kids when they were one on one with them, but didn't have an appreciation of the technical side of rugby and their superior physical state was nullified. In particular, they were lost when the ball was on the ground because they were used to the play being stopped after a tackle. Mauls absolutely mystified them.

Of course Zipper is large enough. As a Joeys tragic I've known him since he was in the Twos at 15 years old - just as I knew his brothers. Many is the time I've mentioned that it's hard to assess ethnic Islander schools players because they develop quicker, but are then caught up by others as they get older.

Zipper's older brother Pauliasi is a good example. He was a world beater at school and was the Oz Schools captain but he virtually stopped growing when he left school, except sideways.

I was talking about the other young players who are not ethnic Islanders who mature early. Guys like the Rabbit, for example.

 

[TOCC]

Im interested in your argument about league players being 2 years more developed, i have seen nothing to support this case. This probably has more to do with the NRL's larger focus on polynesian players, Afusipa Taumoepeau is a example of this, a rugby union player who debut'd at 18 and was definetly large enough.

You have seen nothing to support my argument because you haven't seen enough.

I'll give you an example.

In recent years Joeys 2nds have played against St. Gregorys a couple of times - or maybe one year it was the 3rds. IIRR St.Gregs took the place of High who didn't field a team at those levels.

The Gregs boys were boarders of a rugby league school and quite a few were in their 1st XIII league team - or whatever they call it. They ran on and looked like muscular young men. Many of them had had gym work at their local league club as a school activity, according to what a Gregs master told me. They looked like they were 19 or 20.

Then the Joeys boys ran on and they looked like, well, schoolboys. This can be confirmed by anybody who watches Joeys games, such as Lindommer.

They bashed the Joeys kids when they were one on one with them, but didn't have an appreciation of the technical side of rugby and their superior physical state was nullified. In particular, they were lost when the ball was on the ground because they were used to the play being stopped after a tackle. Mauls absolutely mystified them.

Of course Zipper is large enough. As a Joeys tragic I've known him since he was in the Twos at 15 years old - just as I knew his brothers. Many is the time I've mentioned that it's hard to assess ethnic Islander schools players because they develop quicker, but are then caught up by others as they get older.

Zipper's older brother Pauliasi is a good example. He was a world beater at school and was the Oz Schools captain but he virtually stopped growing when he left school, except sideways.

I was talking about the other young players who are not ethnic Islanders who mature early. Guys like the Rabbit, for example.

your quick to label, i said i have seen nothing to support this case and rather then trying to give me examples you just pay me off... hmmm...

anyway, im not here to get in a pissing competition over who has seen more, i am trying to figure out what you are basing your argument on though..

I have seen plenty of examples of rugby union and rugby league schoolboys coming through the grades, at the end of the day i still havent seen many examples of what you are saying. I even went to school with a prominent NRL player who debut'd in his first season out, even there i still dont see evidence of your argument. What i see, is polynesian boys develop faster, become bigger and stronger then caucasian boys at a younger age, that is about it.

Although you say you are referring to players who are non-islanders, im mystified as to who you could be reffering to, out of that list of players i gave before Mitchell Pearce and Chris Lawerence are the only 2 17year old caucasian guys, both of whom looked like that they were at the same level of physical development as James O'Connor..

David Pocock, Dane Haylett-Petty and Robert Horne are more examples of players who dont fit your profile..

dont think im trying to prove you wrong, but i just havent seen any evidence about what you are talking about.
maybe its a sydney thing, but when i look through the records of players who have debut'd it doesnt really explaing it any better.

 

[Lee Grant]

We are getting off the point.

I maintain that, generally speaking, the Super 14 coaches use too many lads who are not physically prepared enough compared to some of the seasoned players they have to play against. The fact that we can all name examples of players who have be promoted into the Super14 before their time and have not been injured, is neither here nor there IMO.

This is a relatively recent phenomenon. No don't mention guys from earlier years - I know about them too - my point here is that have never been so many of last years schoolboys being used in Super rugby as there has been recently, and I find that trend to be alarming.

I also maintain that, generally speaking, the teenage league players who are promoted to play in the NRL are better prepared physically than the union guys of the same age who are pushed forward to play in the Super14.

I also maintain that the Kiwi teenagers have it better. Because of the depth they have on the other side of the pond there is not the same imperative to put teenagers into the Super14 before their time. The families of Matt To'omua and Quade Cooper came over from New Zealand. Those young blokes would never have played Super rugby the year after leaving school had their families stayed over there. Over here they did, and I think they were put at risk.


It's not just a Sydney thing as you postulate - you missed this:

I am with you all the way there Lee.

I was speaking to an exBris club pres on Sunday and they all have the same concerns and the rugby heirachy don't have the balls to say 'leave' alone for a few years. They are so paranoid that some other group will come along and poach their young star.

This explains my opinion more eloquently than I did.

You won't agree with it but I do; so let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

I think the stupidity of the situation was shown clearly earlier in the year.
JOC (James O'Connor) was not allowed to play in the U20 World Cup due to the 2 year window yet under international laws he was elligible for test and S14 playtime.

We have an U20 law system that is designed to protect the youngsters from over exploitation yet it is not backed up at the top level.
If a player is U20 - hands off until he outgrows that age groupand is therefore better prepared physically to play the elite level.