The NZ/SA Rivalry, how fierce is it?

[I like to watch]

Great thread.

Is it fair to say that they are the only two SH Nations on the planet where Rugby Union has traditionally been the number 1 sport.

It never has been in Oz and never will be.

I don't want to get politically correct about this,but that is only true for white South Africans.Soccer is huuuuge with the black community there.

 

[Dan54]

Sorry Rassie, I agree I wasn't around 20-50, but while it wasn't law, I am sure before then NZRU were told that cooured players were not welcome. I know Nepia played league for a while, so did Bob Scott another great All Black (who wasn't maori), but I stick with what I say, to say very few Maori played rugby in amateur era is rubbish, as apart from one or 2 places in NZ hardly any league was played, and there were certainly plenty of maori boys playing against me as I grew up and played. I can only speak on what I saw,not on what I read in one book!!

 

[FrankLind]

The mass Pacific Island immigration to NZ has really helped NZ rugby, even though, these days most island players are born and bred in NZ.

Current Maori ABs - Aaron Smith, Israel Dagg, Liam Messam, Dane Coles, Cruden?, Kerr-Barlow, Perenara.

Islander heritage - Savea, Faumuina, Luatua, Mealamu, Piutau, Sailli, Nonu.

 

[Bon]

Speaking as a NZer of Samoan descent (my father moved to NZ in the '50's), the Dawn Raids are a shameful part of NZ history. These were condemned or criticised by almost every sphere of NZ society including the police who were conducting them. It was nothing short of racial profiling.

I can understand your thinking there Bullrush, yes there was national condemnation of the police actions but you could hardly call it racial profiling. the island people were the only significant group of overstayers in New Zealand.

 

[Bullrush]

Not true Bon. Pacific Islanders made up approx a third of the overstayers with majority of them actually being SA, British and Aussie. But what percentage of those arrested and prosecuted were PI? 86%.....hmmmm

 

[southsider]

Not true Bon. Pacific Islanders made up approx a third of the overstayers with majority of them actually being SA, British and Aussie. But what percentage of those arrested and prosecuted were PI? 86%...hmmmm

now we know your lying, what aussies in their right mind would (1) go to nz and (2) stay past their visa etc

 

[Bullrush]

now we know your lying, what aussies in their right mind would (1) go to nz and (2) stay past their visa etc

 

[Bon]

Aussies needed neither a visa or a passport and could stay as long as they liked back then. We are talking early fifties? I think the raids you are referring to were introduced in the early 1970's. But even then Aussies still didn't need a passport or visa and had residential status.

 

[southsider]

View attachment 4092

I know I wont have many supporters in this, but easily my most hated sportsman of all time. Whenever he changed codes just went to the team with the most success. Cant believe he played for Australia in league and NZ in union biggest joke

 

[Dam0]

I know I wont have many supporters in this, but easily my most hated sportsman of all time. Whenever he changed codes just went to the team with the most success. Cant believe he played for Australia in league and NZ in union biggest joke

I think you might be right there.

His story is very plausible and understandable. Young lad from Mosgiel grows up dreaming to play for the All Blacks. Probably had never heard of league or the Kiwis or the Kangaroos (not an exaggeration by the way for a kid from Mosgiel in those days). Family emigrates to Australia and he gets lead astray and plays league. Plays Origin and for the Kangaroos.

Still has a burning desire to play for the All Blacks so he comes back in early 2000's but it doesn't quite work out for family and other reasons so he goes back to Broncos. Feels the desire again and is encouraged to come back in late 2007 (ironically by Robbie Deans) and comes good as an All Black (much to Deans' detriment).

It makes perfect sense to me; all his relationship with League was in Australia and all his feelings about rugby were associated with NZ. Russell Crowe said something very similar, he supports the All Blacks and the Kangaroos because of the feelings he associates with each sport.

 

[Bullrush]

Aussies needed neither a visa or a passport and could stay as long as they liked back then. We are talking early fifties? I think the raids you are referring to were introduced in the early 1970's. But even then Aussies still didn't need a passport or visa and had residential status.

Two thirds of the over-stayers were from Europe and Nth America. Not Australia?! Had Australia on the brain.

The point though is that not a lot of white folk were stopped in streets and asked to identify themselves or show their passports. Saying that PIs were the only significant group simply isn't true. They may have been the only ones in the post-war economic boom invited over to fill jobs in factories and do jobs kiwis didn't want to do though.....

 

[Bon]

Fair enough,I remember the Govt of the day coming in for a heap of criticism because of those targeted raids. Nothing much was done about rounding up overstayers until the oil shocks of the early seventies brought the economy to a virtual standstill.

 

[southsider]

I think you might be right there.

His story is very plausible and understandable. Young lad from Mosgiel grows up dreaming to play for the All Blacks. Probably had never heard of league or the Kiwis or the Kangaroos (not an exaggeration by the way for a kid from Mosgiel in those days). Family emigrates to Australia and he gets lead astray and plays league. Plays Origin and for the Kangaroos.

Still has a burning desire to play for the All Blacks so he comes back in early 2000's but it doesn't quite work out for family and other reasons so he goes back to Broncos. Feels the desire again and is encouraged to come back in late 2007 (ironically by Robbie Deans) and comes good as an All Black (much to Deans' detriment).

It makes perfect sense to me; all his relationship with League was in Australia and all his feelings about rugby were associated with NZ. Russell Crowe said something very similar, he supports the All Blacks and the Kangaroos because of the feelings he associates with each sport.

I just don't see it. In my mind your either a aussie or a kiwi. In both codes their main opposition is the other country, how can he possibly stand there one week proudly representing Australia and singing advance Australia fair and wanting to destroy the nz league team for the country you love and then the next year stand opposite Australia wearing black and singing god defend new Zealand and wanting to tear the wallabies a new one while giving your all for new Zealand.

He has to prefer one country over the other

 

[Braveheart81]

I just don't see it. In my mind your either a aussie or a kiwi. In both codes their main opposition is the other country, how can he possibly stand there one week proudly representing Australia and singing advance Australia fair and wanting to destroy the nz league team for the country you love and then the next year stand opposite Australia wearing black and singing god defend new Zealand and wanting to tear the wallabies a new one while giving your all for new Zealand.

He has to prefer one country over the other

I'm sure the answer to that is New Zealand, but it's kind of irrelevant.

He is an absolute professional and put his all into every team he played for.

Surely his record in each code speaks for itself. You can go out there on the field and play your heart out for your side without actually needing to have a genuine hatred for the opposition.

 

[southsider]

I'm sure the answer to that is New Zealand, but it's kind of irrelevant.

Not really.....

I could represent England in rugby, sure id give it all I had and id do my absolute best but I wouldn't have that burning passion for the country. I think having this passion/love of your country makes a difference in how well you play

If he does prefer NZ how can he be fully 100% satisfied with going out and playing for Australia and beating new Zealand? I honestly just don't get it.

 

[Braveheart81]

If he does prefer NZ how can he be fully 100% satisfied with going out and playing for Australia and beating new Zealand? I honestly just don't get it.

How does any player give their all for a team that isn't the one they support or have supported all their life?

It's called professionalism.

If you look at most sports and particularly any that have a draft system, most people end up playing for teams other than the one they've grown up supporting.

 

[southsider]

How does any player give their all for a team that isn't the one they support or have supported all their life?

It's called professionalism.

If you look at most sports and particularly any that have a draft system, most people end up playing for teams other than the one they've grown up supporting.

so your pretty much saying that representing a country is equivalent to playing for a club?

 

[Braveheart81]

so your pretty much saying that representing a country is equivalent to playing for a club?

No, I'm not. What I'm saying is that professional sportsmen and in particular the best sportsmen apply themselves fully and put in their best effort every time they take the field.

They don't need to be wearing a national jersey to give it their all and care about how they play and the result.

 

[southsider]

No, I'm not. What I'm saying is that professional sportsmen and in particular the best sportsmen apply themselves fully and put in their best effort every time they take the field.

They don't need to be wearing a national jersey to give it their all and care about how they play and the result.

ok lets use your logic then, lets for a second pretend that union has the same flaky eligibility rules as league does. If say Ritchie McCaw or Brian O'Driscoll (id say their classified as truly "professional sportsmen") wanted to switch alligence to Australia, would you want them?

 

[Braveheart81]

ok lets use your logic then, lets for a second pretend that union has the same flaky eligibility rules as league does. If say Ritchie McCaw or Brian O'Driscoll (id say their classified as truly "professional sportsmen") wanted to switch alligence to Australia, would you want them?

As 32 and 34 year olds or however old they are, probably not.

If either of those players had emigrated to Australia for whatever reason earlier in their careers and could qualify to play for Australia then absolutely.

Do you honestly think they wouldn't try as hard because it's not the country they were born in?

There are at least 7 Wallabies from this year or last year who weren't born in Australia. Do you question whether they are fully committed or loyal?

I would say that Rugby Union's eligibility rules are no less flaky than league's now days. League used to have a rule where you could change once or something to help out the smaller nations but I think they ditched that.

Anyway, in rugby union you can qualify for a country based on the nationality of yourself, your parents and your grandparents. I would suggest that means that there are very few players who are only eligible for one country.